I think it is human nature to look over any such situation and consider what might possibly have been done differently that may have changed the outcome or saved a life. Maybe it is "fantasy", but I would hope that anyone would recognize and take full advantage of any brief opportunity to end it prematurely, should one be presented. It is a given that we should protect ourselves and our families, and stay out of the way of law enforcement, and not cause further chaos, but I would hope that in such a situation, should an opportunity present itself that I could do something to save another or a stranger, that I would not fail to act, but flee instead of facing the potential danger.
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Tactic in a Mass Shooting Situation
- Thread starter Overkill777
- Start date
g.willikers
New member
Anyone who is has made up their minds and is willing to help stop evil best have the skills to back up their intentions.
If those skills are lacking, there's no better time to get started acquiring them than right now.
If those skills are lacking, there's no better time to get started acquiring them than right now.
as you said - do not go back or try to engage an attacker unless you have no choice. Best case is you stop them, worst case is that you are another person with a gun that gets shot by police or another person with ccw that doesnt know you are not the bad guy.
always plan an escape route when you enter a new place - like a movie theatre, work, etc. I do this everywhere. It takes 1 min to say where would I run, where are escape routes, where could you hide, what could you use for a weapon. being aware of your surroundings is huge and try to place yourself in a position that you could escape if something happened.
Be aware of your surroundings and the people around you. who doesnt look right? what doesnt look right?
if you can hide, shut/lock doors. turn off lights. act as if no one is there - this is pretty much the only thing i can do at my university. I also carry pepper spray. guns are a no no
other things you can do to prepare...
practice shooting...
know how to fight...mma is probably the best out there - its a combination of brazilian jiu jitsu, muay thai, wreslting, and boxing. most other martial arts are not usually very good. Some realistic SD ones like krav can be good but there are many bad schools for each good one which is why I always suggest MMA.
always plan an escape route when you enter a new place - like a movie theatre, work, etc. I do this everywhere. It takes 1 min to say where would I run, where are escape routes, where could you hide, what could you use for a weapon. being aware of your surroundings is huge and try to place yourself in a position that you could escape if something happened.
Be aware of your surroundings and the people around you. who doesnt look right? what doesnt look right?
if you can hide, shut/lock doors. turn off lights. act as if no one is there - this is pretty much the only thing i can do at my university. I also carry pepper spray. guns are a no no
other things you can do to prepare...
practice shooting...
know how to fight...mma is probably the best out there - its a combination of brazilian jiu jitsu, muay thai, wreslting, and boxing. most other martial arts are not usually very good. Some realistic SD ones like krav can be good but there are many bad schools for each good one which is why I always suggest MMA.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I suggest that you get a comfort area coloring book that is used to reduce stress. Sit there and color it. Get one with trains and color them blue.
Or reread Pax's post.
About retrieving a gun and running back. A few years, one of our member LEOs told me of an incident. A dad drove to the scene, and with handgun in hand, tried to run in to save his daughter. He was almost shot crossing the police line. Luckily someone figured out that he wasn't the bad guy.
About comparative risk. I might be more likely to get the flu than be in a shooting. However, I get a flu shot and learn how to take a shot if need be.
Or reread Pax's post.
About retrieving a gun and running back. A few years, one of our member LEOs told me of an incident. A dad drove to the scene, and with handgun in hand, tried to run in to save his daughter. He was almost shot crossing the police line. Luckily someone figured out that he wasn't the bad guy.
About comparative risk. I might be more likely to get the flu than be in a shooting. However, I get a flu shot and learn how to take a shot if need be.
Realistically, there's a miniscule chance of being present at a mass shooting. There seems to be a greater chance of being shot by a family member--intentionally. Ignoring that possibility for the sake of discussion, it seems that a person is actually more likely to be involved in an incident in which flight is impossible. Think about having an armed intruder in your home, for instance. That seems to be a more likely scenario, although in comparison, it doesn't sound so dramatic.
If that is the case, you're not going to be shooting at someone in a crowded shopping center from twenty-five yards away. That's why I maintain that your most likely target is going to be no further away than across the room. But some of you may live in larger houses than I do.
If that is the case, you're not going to be shooting at someone in a crowded shopping center from twenty-five yards away. That's why I maintain that your most likely target is going to be no further away than across the room. But some of you may live in larger houses than I do.
Limnophile
New member
I don't have a problem with a self-preservation mindset, but understand that some, especially those of Northwest European descent, are programmed -- by culture, genetics, or both -- to be rather altruistic, even pathologically altruistic.
I would not recommend engaging any target at 100 yd with a carry pistol under anything but the most dire circumstance -- eg, you're caught in the open and a guy with a rifle is shooting at you. Service handguns are typically sighted in at about 25 yd, and the military considers them to be combat effective out to 50 yd. Can you hit a man-sized target at 100 yd? Sure, if you practice, but a good hit rate at typical self-defense distances -- within 10 yd -- is one out of three shots, so expect a hit rate far lower at 100 yd. In a mass shooter situation you don't want to be wasting precious ammunition, as you can bet your foe brought much more than you did.
I would not recommend engaging any target at 100 yd with a carry pistol under anything but the most dire circumstance -- eg, you're caught in the open and a guy with a rifle is shooting at you. Service handguns are typically sighted in at about 25 yd, and the military considers them to be combat effective out to 50 yd. Can you hit a man-sized target at 100 yd? Sure, if you practice, but a good hit rate at typical self-defense distances -- within 10 yd -- is one out of three shots, so expect a hit rate far lower at 100 yd. In a mass shooter situation you don't want to be wasting precious ammunition, as you can bet your foe brought much more than you did.
you're caught in the open and a guy with a rifle is shooting at you. Service handguns are typically sighted in at about 25 yd, and the military considers them to be combat effective out to 50 yd. Can you hit a man-sized target at 100 yd? Sure, if you practice,
Im reviewing in my mind the North Hollywood bank robbery. 2 shooters armed with rifles and wearing body armor. Lots of LONG shots (90+yards) taken by responding officers armed with handguns.
I dont recall the total # of rounds fired by Police, but it was HIGH.
I have trained (and taught students) to engage tgts at extremely long distances, but the fact is thats a very low percentage shot, under the stress if an actual encounter.
By all means...train for it. But the common held "Run, Hide, Fight" response is a better one for most people. If thats what you do then the only time you would engage is if the badguy was closing distance with you.
The reality of playing "sniper pistol" is pretty daunting. Try it if you must, but scoring a debilitating hit at 100+ yards with an iron sighted CCW type pistol is unlikely in a real encounter
"All that is needed for evil to succeed is for a few good men to do nothing". This quote or similar to it is something that inspires and have always tried to model mysel as a good man.
The truth of the matter is that no one knows how not even yourself, how you will react to a situation until it happens. I spent almost 21 years in the military and was faced with many situations in which I wished I would have reacted differently. There is alot to be said for hindsight. There were situations where I froze, or acted to aggressively,or should have been more gentle or patient. You never know your true self until you are tested.
I normally carry a 1911 and can hit a paper plate at 100 yds 5 out of 7 times. But I doubt I could hit a human size target shooting an ar 15 or AK at me.
The truth of the matter is that no one knows how not even yourself, how you will react to a situation until it happens. I spent almost 21 years in the military and was faced with many situations in which I wished I would have reacted differently. There is alot to be said for hindsight. There were situations where I froze, or acted to aggressively,or should have been more gentle or patient. You never know your true self until you are tested.
I normally carry a 1911 and can hit a paper plate at 100 yds 5 out of 7 times. But I doubt I could hit a human size target shooting an ar 15 or AK at me.
If I were in the open and a likely target I would shoot. If I were under cover but unable to leave I would shoot. If I were under cover and unnoticed and people were being shot I would shoot. The last circumstance would be about as gutsy as I would get. I would only risk attracting attention to save people I don't know if I had reasonable cover and was sure I could "hit the gong" every time with the gun I had with me. Now if it were school children and puppies being picked off................I might risk everything. YMMV as I don't have children of my own to return to in the worst case.
zincwarrior
New member
Best tactic- get the BLEEP out of there.
Every other tactic is a last resort.
Every other tactic is a last resort.
It's easy to talk about what you would do in a situation like this but there are so many unknowns and it's much different when fight or flight kicks in. I think its important to try to have a realistic mindset though.
Fight, flight or freeze. Facts are that the VAST majority fall into category 2 or 3. I agree that my goal is to survive for my family and that there are few situations in which an armed citizen can insert themselves into a fight and create a more positive outcome. However, if you are targeted, then you should know how, and what to do.
I would also assert that the VAST majority of the people who have a CCW (and I do not think the TFL crowd is representative of the ave CCW holder) lack shooting skills or tactical skills to be of much benefit. I believe that for most, the best chance at saving a life is going to be administering of trauma care, but so few are trained or have any equipment. Second is to be the best witness you can be. Evac and observe is what I hope most would do if given the chance.
Stress inoculation is huge. as some have alluded to. Go do a Paramedic ride along in a big city, and a LE ride along. You will start to get an idea maybe. Find an extreme sport out of your comfort zone and try it, that will start to get an idea of how you react to adrenaline.
The most tools in the bag, the more calm you can remain, the better your chance of survival and the better your chance that you can help your fellow man...if you are so inclined.
FireForged
New member
No one knows what they would do in that type of situation including me.
Perhaps not but the best time for considering it and qualifying in your mind for the first time what you are prepared to do, willing to do.. isnt when the crisis is happening.
There can be a benefit to checking off a certain degree of boxes before crisis occurs and then there are the boxes you check based on what specifically is happening in the moment.
Most people consider ahead of time what they would do in the event of a fire, car accident, tornado, home invasion, cardiac emergency and many other crisis events.. this discussion is no different.
what would i do?
i don't know.
but i do know that i always have a pistol on my hip. a pistol i shoot regularly. a pistol that i know i can hit a target with at 35 yards. a pistol loaded with quality ammo that has passed the FBI barrier tests. a pistol that has several spare magazines, one of which i also carry with me.
so, i don't know what i would do, but i do have options.
i don't know.
but i do know that i always have a pistol on my hip. a pistol i shoot regularly. a pistol that i know i can hit a target with at 35 yards. a pistol loaded with quality ammo that has passed the FBI barrier tests. a pistol that has several spare magazines, one of which i also carry with me.
so, i don't know what i would do, but i do have options.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Most people consider ahead of time what they would do in the event of a fire, car accident, tornado, home invasion, cardiac emergency and many other crisis events.. this discussion is no different.
Mindset is so important. Also, the emergency literature is clear that training with realistic simulations gives the best results. Fire, medical, combat, police, flying, being a ship captain, nuclear tech - whatever.
Realistically, there's a miniscule chance of being present at a mass shooting.
Cold comfort to 14 bereaved families of the San Bernardino dead. Ultimately, people respond to stressful situations in the way they were trained (or have trained themselves) to respond. If they are trained to do what works, their odds of survival improve. If trained to do something that does not, their odds of survival could be less than for they who freeze and do nothing.
In any case, it is hard for me to imagine that the casualty count at San Bernardino would have been so high, had one or more armed persons had engaged the creeps and drawn their fire. The person confronting them may increase his/her odds of being killed, but those odds were already suddenly quite high. We know that some among the murdered acted to protect others who were exposed to hazard. I just wish they'd had something besides their bodies with which to fend for the survivors.
kilimanjaro
New member
The odds of an armed civilian response to an act of terror like these is rising, gun sales are through the roof, CCW applications are backed up, more people are going to deep carry despite employers rules, another college will allow student carry, etc., etc.
There is a miniscule chance of being involved in one of these events, but statistically, your house will burn down only once in about 1200 years. You carry fire insurance because it's too big of a loss to take without it.
Same with carrying a firearm. Without it, you will almost certainly lose everything, your life and perhaps the lives of your loved ones. With it, you stand a chance of walking out with them.
There is a miniscule chance of being involved in one of these events, but statistically, your house will burn down only once in about 1200 years. You carry fire insurance because it's too big of a loss to take without it.
Same with carrying a firearm. Without it, you will almost certainly lose everything, your life and perhaps the lives of your loved ones. With it, you stand a chance of walking out with them.
I normally carry a 1911 and can hit a paper plate at 100 yds 5 out of 7 times. But I doubt I could hit a human size target shooting an ar 15 or AK at me.
Why not? A human target is larger than a 9" dinner plate. That AR/AK the creep is holding doesn't make that dinner plate any smaller. You may not have as much time to carefully aim at them as you did the unarmed paper plate, but that's why you practice. To get faster at shooting better.