Swat and their tactical procedures
- Thread starter SifuGun
- Start date
Double Naught Spy
New member
Yeah, I carried 6 for a class demo. I clunked when I sat down when we went to eat at the local burger place...but they were all concealed. 
Yes, 1 or 2 are fine. 6 is a bit over the top.
Yes, 1 or 2 are fine. 6 is a bit over the top.
No police officer wants ANYBODY to die, ESPECIALLY an innocent person!
Where did I say it was "ok that innocent people are killed"??? If you're so upset that you can't even read right, maybe you should take a few deep breaths before you start typing a response.
I purposedly quoted the other fella who said "supposed innocent people". That's where those words came from. Kinda tired that a few people love to take pot shots at the police any time they are mentioned.
Let's switch roles for a moment......you be the police officer & I'll be the ACLU advocate.......
Just how would you propose cutting down the rare accidental shooting? How about outlawing all warrant service on a suspects house & make a law where the police can only serve an arrest warrant if they have absolute 100% proof that the person who they're after is going to be out on a street. That way, the police certainly can't be vilified for occasionally hitting the wrong house. And then, when innocent people are perhaps caught in the crossfire, then your next step can be to eliminate warrant service all together. Maybe have a law that demands all wanted people to turn themselves in at their local police department or ACLU office?
I would LOVE, that's L-O-V-E, to see how YOU would handle an arrest warrant where the person you were going after had already shot people, & now, it's your job to go get 'em. Yep. We should let all the perfect people in this thread who have such emnity towards law enforcement go thru the door & show us how they would do it perfectly & flawless, time after time, year after year. Remember, no mistakes!
Where did I say it was "ok that innocent people are killed"??? If you're so upset that you can't even read right, maybe you should take a few deep breaths before you start typing a response.
I purposedly quoted the other fella who said "supposed innocent people". That's where those words came from. Kinda tired that a few people love to take pot shots at the police any time they are mentioned.
Let's switch roles for a moment......you be the police officer & I'll be the ACLU advocate.......
Just how would you propose cutting down the rare accidental shooting? How about outlawing all warrant service on a suspects house & make a law where the police can only serve an arrest warrant if they have absolute 100% proof that the person who they're after is going to be out on a street. That way, the police certainly can't be vilified for occasionally hitting the wrong house. And then, when innocent people are perhaps caught in the crossfire, then your next step can be to eliminate warrant service all together. Maybe have a law that demands all wanted people to turn themselves in at their local police department or ACLU office?
I would LOVE, that's L-O-V-E, to see how YOU would handle an arrest warrant where the person you were going after had already shot people, & now, it's your job to go get 'em. Yep. We should let all the perfect people in this thread who have such emnity towards law enforcement go thru the door & show us how they would do it perfectly & flawless, time after time, year after year. Remember, no mistakes!
From the swat side of the badge, I can see that a no-knock warrant is preferrable. From the civilian side of the badge though, it looks and feels like kristallnacht. When I learned about the police state as a kid in Jr High, I thought we would never see it here. Sadly, I was wrong.
Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.
Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."
Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.
Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.
US Marine Jose Guerena was shot twenty-two times by a SWAT team planning to serve a warrant. He retrieved a legally possessed rifle in response to sudden intruders, likely concerned for his family's safety, and the SWAT team opened fire on him before establishing any communication. The team later retracted its initial claims he had opened fire when it was established that Guerena had never fired and his safety was still on. No evidence of drug trafficking was found and Mr. Guerena had no criminal convictions. Members of the SWAT team subsequently hired legal defense and a large following of fellow Marines held a memorial service at his home with his widow.
Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.
Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."
Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.
Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.
US Marine Jose Guerena was shot twenty-two times by a SWAT team planning to serve a warrant. He retrieved a legally possessed rifle in response to sudden intruders, likely concerned for his family's safety, and the SWAT team opened fire on him before establishing any communication. The team later retracted its initial claims he had opened fire when it was established that Guerena had never fired and his safety was still on. No evidence of drug trafficking was found and Mr. Guerena had no criminal convictions. Members of the SWAT team subsequently hired legal defense and a large following of fellow Marines held a memorial service at his home with his widow.
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Okay say we do away with all no knock warrants, then how are we going to approach safely serving a search/arrest warrant in a way that won't endanger the officers and the public at large.
Who is going to go up to an MS13 affiliated drug house and knock on the door and announce a search warrant?
Potential results, destruction of evidence injury to police or bystanders if someone high on drugs or testosterone decides he is going to repel entry.
Is an Islamic or home grown terrorist group should one be found, who is going to walk up to the front door and knock and announce?
Potential results, they go from surprised and unaware, to prepared and ready to repel entry and are willing to take as many LE members and innocents with them as is possible, because it suits there agenda.
A No Knock warrant served on the wrong house or address in error is unfortunate and shouldn't happen, but accidents can and do happen, not excusing it or justifying it, sometimes a little more investigation may catch an error, sometimes it is clerical, sometimes it is faulty out of date or even false information supplied by CI or the intelligence branches.
But, I can also imagine the six o'clock news if the police/LE agency chose to do a walk up warrant serving and not only do the entry team take a beating, but innocents in the surrounding area are injured and killed...I can hear Wolf Blitzer on CNN asking the question right now...If you knew they were this dangerous why did you walk up and serve a warrant, why didn't you choose to do a No Knock warrant and quickly secure the suspects before they could detonate their dirty bomb or shoot up half the block ..etc etc. I can also imagine the response from the public if the spokes,man said well Wolf we did this because a No Knock warrant makes it seem like we are to much of a Police state and people have repeatedly called for them to be done away with because there has been mistakes in the past with injuries and deaths caused......
I can only imagine the fall out and the screams for someones head on a platter and the wrongful death suits that will be flooding the courts, but someone will be able to stand up and proudly say .."See we aren't a Police state or a bunch of jack booted Nazi's, we gave them plenty of warning like you wanted.... they just took advantage....how unsporting".
Small consolation for any of the dead or injured.
Who is going to go up to an MS13 affiliated drug house and knock on the door and announce a search warrant?
Potential results, destruction of evidence injury to police or bystanders if someone high on drugs or testosterone decides he is going to repel entry.
Is an Islamic or home grown terrorist group should one be found, who is going to walk up to the front door and knock and announce?
Potential results, they go from surprised and unaware, to prepared and ready to repel entry and are willing to take as many LE members and innocents with them as is possible, because it suits there agenda.
A No Knock warrant served on the wrong house or address in error is unfortunate and shouldn't happen, but accidents can and do happen, not excusing it or justifying it, sometimes a little more investigation may catch an error, sometimes it is clerical, sometimes it is faulty out of date or even false information supplied by CI or the intelligence branches.
But, I can also imagine the six o'clock news if the police/LE agency chose to do a walk up warrant serving and not only do the entry team take a beating, but innocents in the surrounding area are injured and killed...I can hear Wolf Blitzer on CNN asking the question right now...If you knew they were this dangerous why did you walk up and serve a warrant, why didn't you choose to do a No Knock warrant and quickly secure the suspects before they could detonate their dirty bomb or shoot up half the block ..etc etc. I can also imagine the response from the public if the spokes,man said well Wolf we did this because a No Knock warrant makes it seem like we are to much of a Police state and people have repeatedly called for them to be done away with because there has been mistakes in the past with injuries and deaths caused......
I can only imagine the fall out and the screams for someones head on a platter and the wrongful death suits that will be flooding the courts, but someone will be able to stand up and proudly say .."See we aren't a Police state or a bunch of jack booted Nazi's, we gave them plenty of warning like you wanted.... they just took advantage....how unsporting".
Small consolation for any of the dead or injured.
OK Once again...
MOST WARRANTS REQUIRE THE POLICE TO KNOCK FIRST. THE POLICE WILL ALWAYS ANNOUNCE!!!
Many warrants arent for drugs or guns... A lot are for stolen property, evidence in white collar crime... But they arent sexy and get little or no coverage. There are Judges, and Magistrates who regularly include a no knock provision in the warrant. Thats where your argument lies. ALL warants are done under judicial review. A wrong address, or apartment is rare in the real world. When the investigation is done correctly almost impossible to happen. All depends on the training, and integrity of the police.
My soloution for the flushing of drugs was to turn off the water to the entire bulding... they may get one flush if it's a tank and bowl... otherwise it's going to be evidence in open view.
MOST WARRANTS REQUIRE THE POLICE TO KNOCK FIRST. THE POLICE WILL ALWAYS ANNOUNCE!!!
Many warrants arent for drugs or guns... A lot are for stolen property, evidence in white collar crime... But they arent sexy and get little or no coverage. There are Judges, and Magistrates who regularly include a no knock provision in the warrant. Thats where your argument lies. ALL warants are done under judicial review. A wrong address, or apartment is rare in the real world. When the investigation is done correctly almost impossible to happen. All depends on the training, and integrity of the police.
My soloution for the flushing of drugs was to turn off the water to the entire bulding... they may get one flush if it's a tank and bowl... otherwise it's going to be evidence in open view.
2damnold4this
New member
Maybe a study should be done to find out the safest methods of serving warrants for both police and the public.
If you break into someone's residence, the onus is on you to positively identify yourself.
The way it was handled here recently was to surround the apartment, evacuate bystanders and establish communication with the occupants. No one else was killed. If a no knock warrant had been executed, there may have been people killed.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be no knock warrants but we need to use them sparingly and we need to realize the primary purpose of the no knock warrant is to protect evidence from destruction, not the safety of the public or officers.
Many unfortunate times it has happened and sadly enough when humans are involved mistakes are going to happen. And I an not saying all are like that but at some point in time a rogue individual happens to get into that position of force or authority and it goes horribly wrong. The consequences of it is that someone gets seriously hurt or even killed, and worse yet its the innocent law abiding person that gets killed or seriously injured.
I can understand that they stand in the way of danger and they are trying stay protected at all times. So the no knock warrants would give them safety. But on the other hand they knew when they took that job (and no one forced them to take it or made it mandatory) that it there was a chance that they too would get hurt and or killed. So in harms way they go.
But laws are in place and even they must follow them just as we do. Have they had some success with military tactics in the civilian world absolutely. But with high success comes high mistakes.
Things need to change if they want to make them a less often. And rather than coddling them and protecting them that make mistakes they need to be punished just as we are in the outside world. If I was to accidentally kill a innocent person I would be put on trial and innocent proven guilty. If one of them kills a innocent person they individual stands a 75% chance he wont see a trail (or so it seems just a perspective).
I understand why they have such units just not so sure I agree with them. No one should be above the law. Not the president and not SRP teams. We are all suppose to be on equal terms. Unfortunately that does not happen. Even in the military we were held accountable.
I can understand that they stand in the way of danger and they are trying stay protected at all times. So the no knock warrants would give them safety. But on the other hand they knew when they took that job (and no one forced them to take it or made it mandatory) that it there was a chance that they too would get hurt and or killed. So in harms way they go.
But laws are in place and even they must follow them just as we do. Have they had some success with military tactics in the civilian world absolutely. But with high success comes high mistakes.
Things need to change if they want to make them a less often. And rather than coddling them and protecting them that make mistakes they need to be punished just as we are in the outside world. If I was to accidentally kill a innocent person I would be put on trial and innocent proven guilty. If one of them kills a innocent person they individual stands a 75% chance he wont see a trail (or so it seems just a perspective).
I understand why they have such units just not so sure I agree with them. No one should be above the law. Not the president and not SRP teams. We are all suppose to be on equal terms. Unfortunately that does not happen. Even in the military we were held accountable.
Yankee Doodle
New member
Glenn
I was under the impression that the OP was referring to SWAT responses with a "No Knock" warrant. If I misunderstood, please accept my apology.
You are absolutely correct. The vast percentage of search warrants served are for reasons other than drugs, weapons, etc., and can be handled by a couple of Detectives knocking on the door. Arrest warrants are another matter.
It goes without saying that we would all prefer the two Detectives at the door routine, but this is not what I understood the original poster to mean.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood.
I was under the impression that the OP was referring to SWAT responses with a "No Knock" warrant. If I misunderstood, please accept my apology.
You are absolutely correct. The vast percentage of search warrants served are for reasons other than drugs, weapons, etc., and can be handled by a couple of Detectives knocking on the door. Arrest warrants are another matter.
It goes without saying that we would all prefer the two Detectives at the door routine, but this is not what I understood the original poster to mean.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
dahermit said:
Loaded question in my estimation. Details are fuzzy in my head regarding the '93 siege. I view the 80 something Davidians in that compound weren't innocent (exception of those that are under the age of reasoning), yet the 4 ATF officers were. To make a black/white assessment of how many innocents were "saved" is impossible to guess. What if we left Koresh alone? How many innocents would have been "saved" then? (rhetorical question).
SifuGun,
I really don't have any hard lined answers to your questions. Reason is, no matter what solution people think they have to the problem, there is no perfect answer where absolutely zero innocent lives will be affected. I firmly believe that our system set up as it is generally speaking is the best of both worlds.
Here are my suggestions to help keep yourself and others from being the mistaken house:
1. Stop by your local LE offices and introduce yourself if possible to the highest ranking person. Get to know your local officials by contributing to their charities. Our local fire department has annual dances and such to raise money and to form relationships with their residents. I attend gun shows on occasion where our sherrif deputies help with security. I introduce myself and tell them where I live. Initiating contact with LE in this manner over a period of time gains familiarity and a level of trust. I'm not saying they're going to assume you'd never do any harm. But it helps in the long run that you have donated your time and efforts to interact and contribute to your community.
2. Keep atop of your local area's current events. Research what your elected officials have been doing (judges included). Without fail, go to the voting booth and perform your civil duties in order to hold them accountable.
3. If you have ANY friends and/or family members that you know is performing or has committed an act that is unlawful, then NEVER allow them into your home. It's especially tough when it comes to close family members. But if your concerns are so dire regarding "no-knock" warrants, then this is something you should weigh.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
In the modern world, there is no excuse for raiding the wrong house. SOMEONE in the force knows absolutely, positively the right place. We have aerial photos, GPS, every officer should have an exacting description of the house, any written addresses should be verified. Most of the time there's no reason why the lead guy couldn't drive by or otherwise view the suspect property directly. It's not like they're doing these raids every 15 minutes on an 8 hour shift. They almost always have, realistically, unlimited time to prepare.
Perhaps, but then we have this excerpt:
A legal no-knock raid, then, can happen in one of two ways. Police can make the case for exigent circumstances to a judge, who then issues a no-knock warrant; or police can determine at the scene that the exigent circumstances exist and make the call for a no-knock raid on the spot. In the latter case, courts will determine after the fact if the raid was legal.
In the real world, the exigent-circumstances exceptions have been so broadly interpreted since Wilson, they've overwhelmed the rule. No-knock raids have been justified on the flimsiest of reasons, including that the suspect was a licensed, registered gun owner (NRA, take note!), or that the mere presence of indoor plumbing could be enough to trigger the "destruction of evidence" exception.
In fact, in many places the announcement requirement is now treated more like an antiquated ritual than compliance with a suspect's constitutional rights. In 1999, for example, the assistant police chief of El Monte, Calif., explained his department's preferred procedure to the Los Angeles Times: "We do bang on the door and make an announcement—'It's the police'—but it kind of runs together. If you're sitting on the couch, it would be difficult to get to the door before they knock it down."
That comment came in a story about a mistaken raid in which Mario Paz, an innocent man, was shot dead by a raiding SWAT team when he mistook them for criminal intruders and reached for a gun to defend himself.
Snipped from this article
What many appear to ignore is that corruption and abuse occurs regardless of which side of the badge the human finds himself. In another case we see criminal corruption killing an innocnet woman:
On Nov. 21 of last year, Atlanta police planted marijuana on Fabian Sheats, a "suspected street dealer." They told Sheats they would let him go if he "gave them something." Sheats obligingly lied that he had spotted a kilogram of cocaine nearby, giving them the address of the elderly spinster Miss Kathryn Johnston, who neither used nor dealt drugs, but who did live in fear of break-ins in her crime-infested neighborhood.
Police then lied to a judge, claiming they had actually purchased drugs at the Johnston house. They acquired one of those once-rare "no-knock" warrants, and violently battered down the reinforced metal door of a private home where there were no drugs.
Miss Johnston fired a warning shot at the unknown people busting down her door. That bullet lodged in the roof of her porch, injuring no one. Police replied by firing 39 rounds at her, hitting her five times, and wounding each other with another five rounds -- though they lied and said they'd been shot by Miss Johnston.
They then handcuffed the old woman as she bled to death on the floor and searched her house. Finding no drugs, they planted three bags of marijuana.
The next day, the cops picked up one Alex White, an informant, advising him that they needed him to lie, saying that he had purchased cocaine at Johnston's house. White refused, managed to escape and went to the media with the story.
linky
The number of no-knock raids has increased from 3,000 in 1981 to more than 50,000 by 2005.
Some LE have asked, I'll paraphrase,"Well what Is the answer then? What is a better way?" The answer I have is I don't know, but it's clear to me that no-knocks aren't it. I don't mean to be callous, but if one is so concerned that he return to his family that he is willing to risk the innocent public to save his skin, he is in the wrong profession. No one is compelled to be law enforcement, but I have no choice to be a civilian vulnerable to no-knocks by virtue of a clerical error and "exigent circumstances".
aarondhgraham
New member
Very well said indeed!
Look people, I respect law enforcement,,,
But it's not a job for the lilly-livered.
I can not abide any group who thinks it's okay to put my safety in jeopardy to ensure theirs.
When even one innocent civilian is killed,,,
That's time to do away with the dangerous practice.
In this day and age where "accidents" are always ruled as negligence,,,
I curse any law enforcement official who says to me, "accidents will happen".
Find another way I say,,,
I despise being "collateral damage",,,
Just so you can feel safer in your chosen profession.
Aarond
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
In these instances, it's not "mistakes", it's gross negligence. Yes, even gross negligence "will happen" but it should be rare enough under these dire circumstances that it's like the reverse of winning the lottery. 2 or 3 times a year with 50,000 raids is several factors of 10 too often.
There really is no LEGITIMATE excuse. When it happens it should be punished SEVERELY.
Any group, agency or individual that can't pull these off with 99.999999999999999% reliability has no business doing the job. After all, that IS the job. The whole friggin' point is to PROTECT civilians.
Really? REALLY?
It doesn't take a genius to tell from reading your post (and taken in the context of your other posts including your wanting to see how I would do things differently rant in your last post) that, you are in fact implying that since it's a rare occurrence, we shouldn't let that dissuade us from letting the police do them. No one in this thread used the words "supposed innocent people being killed," those are your words. Since it isn't a direct quote as you insist, the quotation marks can only be construed as condescending, therefore implying that it is in fact "ok."
If you prefer, we could simply call your post an act of spontaneous sincerity, but as always...Say what you mean, and mean what you say applies.
Not sure who you're referring to when you say "Kinda tired that a few people love to take pot shots at the police any time they are mentioned", as I never said anything bad about the police and I haven't read anything in this thread that would suggest anyone else is doing so. It is however, telling of your mentality in this manner and casts what you wrote earlier in an even dimmer light. The idea that, since the police have such a tough and thankless job, who are you to judge them? Your not the first person on TFL with that mentality and I'm sure you won't be the last.
Perhaps it is you who should heed his own advice, "If you're so upset that you can't even read right, maybe you should take a few deep breaths before you start typing a response." Just a suggestion.
Lastly, to answer your last few questions, please read 2damnold4this's post (#30) above. He put it quite well thus making my answer redundant.
Do I have all the answers? Of course not. But I will say this, any investigative procedure (such as "no-knock" warrants) that could potentially put the lives of innocent people at risk need to be seriously looked at and questioned.
There have been many cases throughout the years where a simple error by the police resulted in the death or deaths of an innocent person. To error is human is never a reasonable excuse. Nor is the apathy that far too many people display in this day and age.