Suspended for gun photo
- Thread starter lg_mouth
- Start date
BrunoNorway
New member
Not quite the same in a lot of states. Most teachers are employed under the terms of some "labor contract" negotiated by a teacher's union. In many states, your employment is "at will" and there is no legal contract or binding agreement. As such, if you work for a company and for some reason appear "in public" in a manner which could or does embarass the company, your job is toast. If you did commercials for Ford claiming that you're a "proud Ford owner" but your Facebook page shows you driving a BMW or (perhaps worse) displaying your "pride & joy" is a 2007 Corvette, you could expect Ford to fire you.
Today, when you're seeking a job, many companies will simply "Google" your name to see what pops up and if it is related to you. And they use various forms of your name too (e.g. Searching Elizabeth, Liz, Betty, Beth, etc.). If you've posted anything to the web (with your real name) it might come back to haunt you.
At what point it becomes censorship or infringing on your 1st Amendment rights is debateable. I don't think many parents would be accepting of a teacher who's Facebook page shows her in wet T-shirt contests or moonlighting as a stripper. And just because you have "free speech" does not mean you're immune from the consequences of that right.
gollbladder13
Moderator
I said it earlier and I'll say it again... you gotta watch what you post on things like that if your profile is public because you never know what kinds of people might do or how they will react...
That being said, unless she's seen breaking the law, there's no harm in it in my mind... My facebook profile pic was me chugging a beer when I was only 19... nobody cared, or questioned how I got home that night... Just because it's a teacher makes no difference. Teachers have lives, too...
That being said, unless she's seen breaking the law, there's no harm in it in my mind... My facebook profile pic was me chugging a beer when I was only 19... nobody cared, or questioned how I got home that night... Just because it's a teacher makes no difference. Teachers have lives, too...
The relevant part here is that she is an employee of a government agency and is being punished for her choice of free expression on her own time and using no school resources. That's a 1st Amendment violation and grounds for a suit. It's also a 2nd Amendment violation. A government employer cannot punish you for belonging to the communist party, the NRA, attending a gay rights meeting, or anything else of that nature. Those are protected rights. Only moral turpitude crosses the line and even that is dicey. Private employers on the other hand (depending on the state) could fire you.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
It is time to make it policy, law, etc. that employers have no control over your life except for evaluating your performance on the job or how it directly effects the firm or institution by actions relevant to its business. Not indirect PR issues.
If some one wants to pose naked and Granny Tightbutt gets all twitter - not her business or the school board's.
If some one wants to pose naked and Granny Tightbutt gets all twitter - not her business or the school board's.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Some new info:
ACLU of Wisconsin defends Beaver Dam teacher (suspeneded for facebook firearm photo)
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Quote:
MILWAUKEE (WKOW) - The ACLU of Wisconsin is defending a Beaver Dam teacher who was put on administrative leave after she posted a questionable photo on her Facebook page.
From the ACLU of Wisconsin:
ACLU of Wisconsin: School should allow teacher to pose with rifle on Facebook
A Beaver Dam Middle School teacher, Betsy Ramsdale, should not have been put on administrative leave simply because of a photo on Facebook showing her training a rifle at the camera. While school safety is of paramount importance, public school teachers do not lose their right to free expression when they are not working.
The context of the photo, the whole Facebook page, is important to understand before taking action against a teacher, who happens to be a gun enthusiast. Media accounts of the photo do not indicate any additional grounds for concern. Beaver Dam School District superintendent Donald Childs is reported to be unaware of any sinister intent.
"Absent any evidence that the teacher poses a threat, the district should not over-react to the sight of a gun in one of their employee's hands," said Chris Ahmuty, Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin today.
The ACLU of Wisconsin is a membership organization devoted to the defense and promotion of civil liberties and rights for all Wisconsin residents.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.a...nav=menu1362_2
------ What, the ACLU? Also, I reiterate my point that employers should have no control over things that are not directly job related.
ACLU of Wisconsin defends Beaver Dam teacher (suspeneded for facebook firearm photo)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
MILWAUKEE (WKOW) - The ACLU of Wisconsin is defending a Beaver Dam teacher who was put on administrative leave after she posted a questionable photo on her Facebook page.
From the ACLU of Wisconsin:
ACLU of Wisconsin: School should allow teacher to pose with rifle on Facebook
A Beaver Dam Middle School teacher, Betsy Ramsdale, should not have been put on administrative leave simply because of a photo on Facebook showing her training a rifle at the camera. While school safety is of paramount importance, public school teachers do not lose their right to free expression when they are not working.
The context of the photo, the whole Facebook page, is important to understand before taking action against a teacher, who happens to be a gun enthusiast. Media accounts of the photo do not indicate any additional grounds for concern. Beaver Dam School District superintendent Donald Childs is reported to be unaware of any sinister intent.
"Absent any evidence that the teacher poses a threat, the district should not over-react to the sight of a gun in one of their employee's hands," said Chris Ahmuty, Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin today.
The ACLU of Wisconsin is a membership organization devoted to the defense and promotion of civil liberties and rights for all Wisconsin residents.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.a...nav=menu1362_2
------ What, the ACLU? Also, I reiterate my point that employers should have no control over things that are not directly job related.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I can hardly believe my eyes. The ACLU is doing something RIGHT! Wow.
Caeser2001
New member
The who
ACLUUpdate from WI
Update from MKE on this case - just what people have been saying about it -
Our largest news-radio station's hosts brought the case up pretty much as it happened, support for the teacher was overwhelmingly positive with one disturbing note. Everyone said that it was no big deal, supported her privacy, right to engage in her hobbies etc.
However, what was not positive was everyone prefaced their argument saying that because this happened in Beaver Dam, WI, this whole thing was OK. They suggest that this is acceptable in what they implicitly called redneck Beaver Dam but not in a civilized place like Milwaukee. Some callers said this was fine in Beaver Dam but if it was a Milwaukee or suburban teacher, than this may have been unacceptable.
Plenty of the people I work with though thought that she deserved punishment because as a teacher, she should be held to higher standard of conduct and not play with guns. Sigh, that is quite a prevalent mentality here.
Obviously I support the teacher and wish any repercussions for school board stupidity didn't have to come out of the Beaver Dam tax-payers' pockets.
I agree with the above posts, particularly the hypocrisy I expected from the ACLU - if it was any civil right except firearms, they would have been on this weeks ago. Hence, hearing they accepted to at least review the case shocks me.
Some days I'm not proud of this place.
Update from MKE on this case - just what people have been saying about it -
Our largest news-radio station's hosts brought the case up pretty much as it happened, support for the teacher was overwhelmingly positive with one disturbing note. Everyone said that it was no big deal, supported her privacy, right to engage in her hobbies etc.
However, what was not positive was everyone prefaced their argument saying that because this happened in Beaver Dam, WI, this whole thing was OK. They suggest that this is acceptable in what they implicitly called redneck Beaver Dam but not in a civilized place like Milwaukee. Some callers said this was fine in Beaver Dam but if it was a Milwaukee or suburban teacher, than this may have been unacceptable.
Plenty of the people I work with though thought that she deserved punishment because as a teacher, she should be held to higher standard of conduct and not play with guns. Sigh, that is quite a prevalent mentality here.
Obviously I support the teacher and wish any repercussions for school board stupidity didn't have to come out of the Beaver Dam tax-payers' pockets.
I agree with the above posts, particularly the hypocrisy I expected from the ACLU - if it was any civil right except firearms, they would have been on this weeks ago. Hence, hearing they accepted to at least review the case shocks me.
Some days I'm not proud of this place.
MR. X, the problem with the ACLU, and anyone else that disapproves, is that they are having a hard time divorcing the "gun" from the first amendment rights of the teacher.
The second amendment "problem" is merely a peripheral (if it is anything) note to her first amendment right that has been stomped upon by the school board.
Odd that so few really see this.
The second amendment "problem" is merely a peripheral (if it is anything) note to her first amendment right that has been stomped upon by the school board.
Odd that so few really see this.
one of the things I picked up from the video report is that some students might have been able to use school computers to access and perhaps print out right there at the school a nice laser printer copy of the picture. If that in fact is the case then having a bunch of these photo copies floating around the school might have been some concern to the administrators. but they let the genie out of the bottle because now even though it is no longer probably just on her facebook page it is all over the net and blinking like a big red light. But I think some states have clauses about professional behavior vs. doing no damage to school and/or students vs conduct unbecoming kind of thing, it's an ethics clause to try and keep the real sickos out of the system. The teacher, considering her position, was stupid to make it the primary pix which meant it was the public pix. unless she really was just looking for a nice lawsuit. I got a gut feeling there is something in her contract that might prevent her from any victory in the courts. She took it down. I agree with her doing that.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Why is it a concern that students can print such a picture? It is not the school's business unless you accept that she is doing something bad.
So if a teacher is in a gun competition or hunting and posts a picture of such - they can be fired or disciplined?
Makes no sense. Employers are not slave owners.
So if a teacher is in a gun competition or hunting and posts a picture of such - they can be fired or disciplined?
Makes no sense. Employers are not slave owners.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Does anyone have a link to the actual picture?
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I kind of like the ACLU
Wish some firearms organization would step behind her.
I realize this is directly 1A, but if 1A does not pertain to 2A we have lost.
Be like saying Citizens have the right to bear arms, unless they are involved in free speech.
Wish some firearms organization would step behind her.
I realize this is directly 1A, but if 1A does not pertain to 2A we have lost.
Be like saying Citizens have the right to bear arms, unless they are involved in free speech.
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i'm 57. but when I was in school through 4 years of college i sorta had what I would call a healthy disrespect for many of my teachers/professors due to what I would call excessive authoritarian personalities. It was a you are gonna absorb this information as I (the teacher) present it to you kind of thing. So I could see myself feeling somewhat repressed & controlled if the teachers at the time were also predominately displaying pictures of themselves with weapons that appear to be pointed at the viewer (me, the student) of the picture. Mild intimidation. At middle school level I'd probably have complained to the principle asking just what the heck this teachers message to me was with this photo. At the college level I probably would have registered a complaint with the university. Of course this was late 60's early 70's and with the war and the campus killings it would have been just another message from the *man* that my liberties are threatened and who gives a damn. Teachers/Professors with guns aimed at the viewer of the persons pix, what a lovely message.