Survival Rifle Scenario

make mine a Savage 24

I would pick a savage model 24 in 22 magnum/12 gage the best of both worlds.
Also for those of you lookin gfor larger combo guns EAA is making them in the larger rifle calibers(3006/12 gage etc.) now for under $1000. for some reason I like the idea of the Ruger 22/77 magnum rifle for this as well.
 
That's what makes these discussions interesting

Survival on small to medium game for decades (with thousands of .22 rounds) or to get a man-killer cartridge and rifle which can also take big game a few times a year and thus also suffice for decades (one shot, one kill, two or three deer per year).

Maybe it's back to a 30-06 and an assortment of ammo from 125 to 220 grains and an assortment of soft point, Nosler Partitions, FMJ, AP, etc. etc. (with most in the 150 to 165 grain range - again lead weighs more than powder to deliver velocity and energy).

Can one forage or raid for more ammo?
If not, what you start with is it.

What is the minimum rifle for deer, bear, and 2-footed varmints?
How about other critters in the rest of the world? They could be huge - but then again, what are you going to do with hundreds of pounds of meat and bone? Shoot a large moose and set up winter camp cuz it'll take until a spring May day in Maine to eat it all? But for a Pennsylvania whitetail all you would need is a .243 (and that may be plenty for people and even elk if you're a good shot).

Decisions, decisions.
That's why we have so many guns.:D
 
AS Posted by Kernel An AK is an exquisite bullet hose.... for most any other purpose you'd need a rifle for (excepting boat anchor) it's only slightly better than useless. It's to dang heavy, underpowered, unwieldy, and only shoots minute-of-barn-door. I'd feel sorely undergunned if I was forced to use an AK as a general purpose survival rifle.


Heavy? Less than 8lbs is heavy?

Underpowered? How is a 30 cal underpowered?

Unwieldy? 16" barrel and a pistol grip stock is unwieldy?

barn door? I'd say that 3-4" groups at 100 yards is hardly barn door shooting.
 
SVD Dragunov. Reliable, powerful, reasonably accurate. The 7.62 X 54R ammo is also easy to get in third world countries.

I hear you can get a new Dragunov in Russia for $200, including scope, bayonet, and seven magazines in a belt pouch.
 
Heavy? Less than 8lbs is heavy?
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Weight of AK47 is 10.58lbs. Source: SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD, 12th Edition, by EC Ezell.
Underpowered? How is a 30 cal underpowered?
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The .30 Russian is slightly less powerful than that most famous 19th Century barn burner - the .30-30 Winchester. Granted, the old .30-30 has killed lots of things, but most of them were at or under 100 yds. You get out to 200yds and beyond and it's woefully lacking in power and exhibiting a rainbow like trajectory. The same can be said for the 7.62x29. It's anemic.
Unwieldy? 16" barrel and a pistol grip stock is unwieldy?
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The AK is notoriously famous for it's poor ergonomic design. I won't go into them all here but in general rifles with huge banana clips and pistol grips are unwieldy to carry at sling arms, they're hard to shoot from improvised supports or low to the ground because of the protruding clip, and AKs have some of the worse sights ever issued on a service rifle.
I'd say that 3-4" groups at 100 yards is hardly barn door shooting.
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Even the rare AK that can shoot that tight of a group is exhibiting unacceptably poor accuracy for a rifle IMO. I have handguns that will shoot twice that good. A worthy field rifle should be able to shoot 3-4" groups a 300yds. If I'm out in the boondocks alone and the SHTF I'd want a rifle that could kill the enemy or bring down a deer out to 600yds with a 90% one shot certitude

But hey, that's just me. Like I said - the AK is perhaps the greatest bullet hose ever developed - but it ain't no rifle. -- Kernel

Keep it light....
 
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Weight of AK47 is 10.58lbs

My SLR-95 is about 7 lbs, and there are lighter AKs available. Why do you quote obsolete or irrelevant data?

The .30 Russian is slightly less powerful than that most famous 18th Century barn burner - the .30-30 Winchester.

True. But, 7.62x39 has momentum (Mass * velocity) that greatly exceeds that of 5.56mm at *all* ranges! Momentum is a reliable indicator of stopping power - for instance, this is why 45ACP is such a good stopper - technically 9mm has as much KE (Kinetic energy) but far less momentum. Why not make meaningful comparisons?

The AK is notoriously famous for it's poor ergonomic design. I won't go into them all here but in general rifles with huge banana clips and pistol grips are unwieldy to carry at sling arms, they're hard to shoot from improvised supports or low to the ground because of the protruding clip, and AKs have some of the worse sights ever issued on a service rifle.

AK is not a rifle. It is short 16" barrel makes it a carbine. It is a short, compact, light carbine designed to be very effective at 200 meters. That it does well and it does not compete with battle rifles, which fail miserably in jungle warfare or city fighting.
Why not compare the AK carbine to other carbines, the weapons in its class?

The point about sights is true.

The carbine has its useful points, and is a nice backup to a 7.62 rifle in my view.
 
Gabe, SVD'd are $800 in Russia.

Kernel, I have several AK's and my RPK doesn't weigh 10 pounds. They must have a misprint or be on crack. My AK-74 are less than 7 pounds and the AK-47's are about 8.

If you look at the balistic tables for the issue 7.62x39 round, it is VERY similar to the 30-30. HP and SP's are a bit better for velocity and in some guns accuracy. As for the rainbow trajectory, I dont think so. I dont have the charts at work with me but the rise is not near as bad as some other calibers.

Unwieldy, I dont think so. I think the AUG is much more so. There are pros and cons to all weapons and if you dont like the 30 or 40 round mag, get a drum or 20 round mag. Both are plentiful in this country.

By all military standards, a 3-4 inch group at 100 yards is perfectly acceptable. Some people get to wrapped up in the 1-2 diference of battle rifle groups. I equate these people to the guys buying big boats or expensive cars to compensate for other...areas that are lacking. Are you doing head shots with a battle rifle at 100 yards? Hell no. Aim for the center mass. Head shots are best left to precision rifles. I have never been in, or taught a military rifle class where they tell you"aim for the T" in the face. It has always been center mass, what does the extra inch in the chest matter? It could mean alot.

The AK is a bullet hose in the wrong hands but the best title probably goes to the MAC. The AK is a very sucessfull battle rifle. 56,000 dead US troops and tons more Russians cant be wrong.

If you want a rifle that will give a one shot stop at 600 yards then get a bolt gun, not a battle rifle.
 
OK, this is a silly argument. Kernel, I'm sorry to break it to you, but the AK is a damn fine rifle/carbine. You don't like the 7.62x39 (and I don't, personally)? Fine, then get an AK in .223. You want a longer barrel too? Fine, get one. Better sights? Can do. And if you think the AK weights 11 pounds, then I've got some lovely land out in West Texas at a bargain price. Even with a heavy receiver and 20" barrel, an AK will weight around 9 lbs. (see robarm.com)

There is almost no serious problem with the AK. Check out the Bulgaria Arsenal Co. K-101 for a 16" carbine, and the Robarm page for a VEPR 2 with a new stock, 20" barrel, etc.

If you don't think the AK is accurate, please be manly enough to have the appropriate convictions in your belief. I'd be quite happy to have you downrange as I demonstrate to you that reality is quite different from your little fantasy world. And you can even feel free to wear a nice little sign that says "barn door".

Now please, I hope you realize that I'm just being a smartmouth. I have absolutely no desire to shoot you, or anyone else. The point is, the AK is just fine in terms of accuracy. When's the last time you used match-grade ammo in one, for instance, or used one that was finely made, and not some slop from Romania or Egypt (sorry, AKers...)?

Banshee
 
If you want a rifle that will bring down a deer at 600 meters with 90% certainty you are not looking at an assault rifle or even battle rifle. Even an AR-15 shooting 1 MOA will have a hard time doing that with iron sights and 5.56 ballistics.

You cannot compare an assault rifle to a sniper rifle/hunting rifle and expect the AK to be more accurate at long distance. But lets see the deer rifle put 30 .30 caliber rounds in a 4" hole at 100 yards in a couple of seconds.
 
PvtPyle wrote: "Gabe, SVD'd are $800 in Russia."

I heard from a Russian army sniper who told me he could get them for $175, a Makarov for $125, and the AK-74 went for $100. Of course, his sources maybe less than official. ;)

I still can't believe those Chinese Drags cost $2,000+ I know for a fact that just 10-15 years ago, it cost Norinco less than twenty bucks to make an AK-47.

So, what does everyone think about Dragunovs as suvival rifles anyway? (assuming they could be had cheap).
 
How about an M-1A with squib loads (IIRC, 150 gr bullet with 12 gr red dot, YMMV) for small game. All the benefits of a .308 main battle rifle with the lower report that a squib load provides for shooting small, non-dangerous food. The lower port pressue will probably not cycle the bolt so the rifle should be even more accurate. You do need to crank up the elevation though. The advantage is that you don't need any chamber inserts to shoot your lower power rounds.
 
The Dragunov is a fine rifle, but since it's not a "super-accurate" sniper (oh, it's good, but no better than an M1 or other battle rifle), I'd prefer to, if I were choosing a full-rifle caliber firearm, take an M1A1 or FAL, since they're more common, as is their ammo.

Banshee
 
That's easy.
My AK-47 with a Kobra sight on it.
Extremely reliable; very rugged and non-susceptable to dirt etc.; not so wimpy and frail like the AR. All the power you would generally need in the 7.62x39 round and not much recoil. Add the Kobra sight because anything is better than standard AK open sights:barf: You can carry enough rounds and some high cap mags to go with them.

On the other hand a scoped G3 might be pretty good. Well, not as much ammo can be carried and more recoil. Gun itself is heavy. Good things are that you would have some good firepower and some great range, especially with a scope.

Another choice for many survivalists would be the .22 long rifle for sevral reasons. You can carry tons of ammo. It's not loud, therefore when you take a shot you con't scare very other animal away for the next 10 miles. Proven to have taken all animals. Of course you wouldn't use it for such but you can take all small game and take dear behind the ear.

I would likely take my AK or a Ruger 10/22 .22 long rifle. It would mostly depend on where I was going and if I would be fighting humans etc. in slef-defense or just trying to survive.
 
Ok.........Lets see what we have so far:

1. AK-47/Variant l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
2. 22/22mag l l l l l l l l l
3. 12ga l l l
4. Dragunov l l
5. HK l
6. 21" accurized stainless bolt action match rifle.308 l


The 'bullet hose' wins :)
 
I know that as far as sheer numbers go, there are more AK's out there than anything else. But I believe that China and Russia (and other former USSR states) account for most of those.

To the best of my knowledge, more countries issue FN FAL's as their main battle rifle than any other. Something on the order of 100 or so different nations. That being the case, it would seem to me that acquiring additional 7.62x51 ammo down the road would be easier than any other cartridge (playing the odds, based on where you might be "dropped").

Make mine an M14 (or an M1A if we've got to limit it to semi's), with about 400-500 rounds and 8 mags for starters. And make sure I've got the detachable scope as well.
 
Ok.........Lets see what we have so far:
5. HK
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Hell, I'd pick the HK. That way, when I found civilization, I could sell it for the current goin rate and get a nice hotel room and a steak dinner! Maybe even a little companionship for the evening...;)

Then, I'd have enough change for a plane ticket back home. Them $2000 guns can be real life savers.

:D
 
Has nobody here read Tunnel in the Sky? Tragic. ;)

In a survival situation, I'd leave the rifle at home and load up on extra food, water, and 20 or so Thompson self-locking wire snares. Hunting for food is generally a waste of energy, when you can let your food come to you.

If I had to have a gun, it would be either a .22LR of some kind (maybe a Marlin Papoose,) or a Rifles, Inc. Ultra-Light Winchester M70 in .308, with a stripper clip bridge and a mid-power scope on QD rings.

- Chris
 
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