Supreme Court Ruling on Heller & the 1986 Prohibition

Let me guess...

You are one of the new class of super citizens who gets to exercise the privilege of machine gun ownership, an honorably discharged veteran?

I am amazed at how people on this site constantly demand more rights for themselves, while ignoring the rights of others.
 
Let me guess...

You are one of the new class of super citizens who gets to exercise the privilege of machine gun ownership, an honorably discharged veteran?

I am amazed at how people on this site constantly demand more rights for themselves, while ignoring the rights of others.

Keep yer shirt on there, cowboy, I'm a career musician and music producer.

Nope, never served. I would now but I'm too old. I have trust, respect, gratitude, and admiration for those who have, though. I just think tapping into their training, and expertise once they have taken off their uniform would be advantageous to any community in crisis, and may be a good place to start any PR campaign to move in the direction of repealing.
 
RE: Reality Check

44 AMP,

I must commend you on your post. Very eloquently put and right to the point. Please spread that thread around and get the word out.

I agree with you on all you said. You must walk before you run. You must load before you shoot.

We need more like you getting the true word out to all.

Thanks for such a good point.
 
Perhaps its time to actually do that.

Actually the NRA already did that - and lost. It was filed within a month of 922(o) becoming law. See Farmer v. Higgins which was funded by the NRA and litigated by Stephen Halbrook.

In fact, 922(o) has now been upheld so many times against so many different challenges in every Circuit Court of Appeals in the U.S. where MGs are legal (i.e. not D.C.), that all this bad precedent is going to be a serious problem for 922(o) challenges even with the decision in Heller.

This is why a smart approach needs to solve incorporation and strict scrutiny before coming back to the type of arms protected by the Second.
 
Let me guess...

You are one of the new class of super citizens who gets to exercise the privilege of machine gun ownership, an honorably discharged veteran?

I am amazed at how people on this site constantly demand more rights for themselves, while ignoring the rights of others.

By that reasoning, the citizens in DC shouldn't have gotten any attention, because the rest of us wouldn't be included in the decision.

A step in the right direction is a step. Once the vets were allowed to keep and bear, the rest of the citizens could THEN cry "foul" and plead in court for "equal justice under the law."

A sugestion of one possible way to press the door a little wider is just that: a sugestion. Slam the sugestion, not the author.

Now you have my opinion. I'm used to dodging and such, so flame away.

Pops
 
Actually the NRA already did that - and lost. It was filed within a month of 922(o) becoming law. See Farmer v. Higgins which was funded by the NRA and litigated by Stephen Halbrook.

Cert being denied is not the same as the Supreme Court ruling against you.

Further, the ruling - as evident from your link - does not consider the 2nd Amendment question at all -

The sole issue is whether section 922(o) prohibits the
private possession of machine guns not lawfully possessed
prior to May 19, 1986.
 
Cert being denied is not the same as the Supreme Court ruling against you.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You accused the NRA of basically doing nothing on 922(o). I'll be nice and assume that was out of ignorance. I pointed out that the NRA tried and lost. Your answer is that cert being denied isn't the same thing as SCOTUS ruling against you. Does that change the outcome of the case somehow?

Further, the ruling - as evident from your link - does not consider the 2nd Amendment question at all

No it doesn't. That is because the collective rights argument was already precedent in that Circuit and Halbrook would have immediately lost with that argument.

Does the fact that Second Amendment grounds were not alleged make this any less of an NRA-backed challenge to 922(o)?

Is there some reason you feel compelled to bring up irrelevant points to this discussion? Do you simply not understand what you are talking about (my vote) or are you just so fixated with 'winning' that you decided to change the discussion to one you might win?
 
Since the Second Amendment has now been ruled to protect an individual right, someone could apply for a license/permit to build a select firearm again. When denied, they could invoke the Heller decision, could they not? That would be a different case than the Farmer decision. Would they win? I don't know. Could they win? I don't know that either. I'll wait for some other folks, who are more schooled in constutional law and the courts than I am, to weigh in.
 
I pointed out that the NRA tried and lost.

I am sorry, I misunderstood your argument.

I thought you meant that the NRA brought a Second Amendment challenge to the courts previously and lost.

I do not accuse the NRA of not having done anything at all against 822(o) at all, I accuse them of not having mounted a consistent effort against it in recent times [say, the last 10 years].
 
I do not accuse the NRA of not having done anything at all against 822(o) at all, I accuse them of not having mounted a consistent effort against it in recent times [say, the last 10 years].
Because of the modern court's propensity to act outside the constitution and to base rulings on personal philosophy rather than the actual text of the Constitution the NRA has had to walk carefully. The wrong case at the wrong time could easily have seen the court rule that the second amendment was obsolete and only applied to arming the states. Even Heller was a squeaker. While we got many of our rights reaffirmed - we did not get a stated standard of strict scrutiny or an affirmation of our right to own anything not commonly in use by the public, or the right to bear concealed arms. That's because Kennedy had to be wooed with promises of restraint and promises of continued limitations on the peoples rights. Going off half cocked would have left us with Kennedy unable to find the second amendment and zero right to keep and bear arms.

It's actually about time for a constitutional crisis to slap the court back into it's role of enforcing the constitution as written. For example the president writing an executive order directing the DOD to ignore the civilian courts for detainees ruling as an unconstitutional infringement on the president war powers. A reminder to the supremes that we have three co-equal branches and that the supreme court isn't a above the other two or above being bound by the written word of the constitution.

Before the well brain washed lawyers on this board faint they should perhaps read this well thought out editorial on the subject.
 
It's actually about time for a constitutional crisis to slap the court back into it's role of enforcing the constitution as written. For example the president writing an executive order directing the DOD to ignore the civilian courts for detainees ruling as an unconstitutional infringement on the president war powers. A reminder to the supremes that we have three co-equal branches and that the supreme court isn't a above the other two or above being bound by the written word of the constitution.

Maybe you will get your wish when President Obama writes an EO that directs ATF to ignore the SCOTUS ruling and enforce his new gun bans.
 
I do not accuse the NRA of not having done anything at all against 822(o) at all, I accuse them of not having mounted a consistent effort against it in recent times [say, the last 10 years].

I am glad they didn't - keep in mind that Heller involved a clearly unconstituional ban and one of the worst gun laws in the country and it was still a 5-4 vote in 2008 (after two Justices had been replaced). I would really be nervous at the thought of our Second Amendment rights being decided by O'Connor or some of the earlier courts.
 
I don't know how she felt about guns, but O'Connor did pretty well at the end, IMO. Right about Kelo, right about Raich, and those are two biggies when it comes to limited government.
 
we did not get a stated standard of strict scrutiny or an affirmation of our right to own anything not commonly in use by the public, or the right to bear concealed arms.
We made significant progress on those first two.

On the individual right question, a necessary precursor to a useful strict scrutiny question, we won big. In the process, the ruling set the second amendment right alongside other enumerated rights in the BOR and specifically rejected the "rational basis" test. As I mentioned, that makes me wonder how the NFA tax can stand.

We actually did get one affirmation of our right to own arms, whether or not they are common. The lower court ruling said, "Once it is determined—as we have done—that handguns are “Arms” referred to in the Second Amendment, it is not open to the District to ban them."

The Supreme Court qualified that somewhat:

We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns...Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.”.

I have several problems with this.

First, Miller didn't say anything about protecting only weapons "typically possessed for lawful purposes." They just said they didn't notice that it was an ordinary military weapon whose use could contribute to the common defense.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Also, a shotgun with a short barrel does have plenty of self defense and military uses, whether the Court noticed or not, and like machine guns, they would be common if not for the ban.

Finally, I fail to see what is so dangerous about a short barrel shotgun or an M-16. Are they that much more dangerous than standard shotguns and AR-15s?
 
There was no standard at all, actually, it was merely to uphold King FDR's mighty mandate. That's what he put them there to do so that's what they did. Miller was dead, his codefendent plead out, and his representation was a public defender and he quit, so they were going to rule against Miller no matter what so anything in the Miller decision was just farce used as filler.
 
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