Superformance in my 30-06

Y

Yosemite Steve

New member
I went to the range today to begin working up loads with Hodgdon's Superformance Powder.

I will start by saying that I have had poor results using R-P brass for reloads and today after putting a lot of time into sorting, trimming and weight sorting this brass, I am done with it. My velocities as well as my groups were scattered. I guess I was hoping that with some anal love it might be better this time and I was sorely disappointed.

Although Hodgdon suggested a COL of 3.330, I seated on the cannelure as that depth was a jam in my gun with the bullet I was using.

With the first five loads I made duplicates with magnum primers to see how they performed. With my varied data it was hard to tell. There was usually one round of the three that would be way off the other two. I will say that I think I found two nodes and will be returning with some Nosler brass after I get my next shipment of supplies next week.

Please do feed me your thoughts on this experiment and the shoddy numbers I throw forth.

Savage 110 30-06 22" barrel
180 grain Hornady BTSP
OAL 3.255" seated to cannelure
R-P brass from mixed lot - trimmed to 2.484" - weight sorted - flash holes deburred - partial full length sized to fit Savage
CCI 200 and 250 primers
Hodgdon Superformance powder

Charge primer velocity avgerage book
54.0 200 2427, 2431, 2371 2409 2628
54.0M 250 2519, 2515, 2550 2528
54.4 200 2572, 2502, 2560 2544
54.4M 250 2590, 2512, 2498 2533
54.8 200 2531, 2530, 2533 2531 NODE 1.25"group
54.8M 250 2552, 2578, 2536 2555
55.2 200 2600, 2535, 2531 2555
55.2M 250 2611, 2596, 2587 2598
55.6 200 2607, 2615, 2579 2606
55.6M 250 2582, 2618, 2608 2602
56.0 200 2631, 2608, 2638 2626
56.4 200 2648, 2641, 2647 2645
56.8 200 2696, 2637, error 2666
57.2 200 2699, 2668, 2698 2688 NODE 1" group

59.7 - - - 2840

With my previous trip, and jamming my bullet, I had two tight groups: 1 at 2557 avg. with a 1" group and 1 at 2694 with a 1/2" group.

My three hole in one shot with different powder and jammed bullet was 2637.

I think my gun likes the 2635 and 2697 velocities.
 
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What gun are you using?
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I put a Waldo hat on it for ya.....

Savage 110 30-06 22" barrel
180 grain Hornady BTSP
OAL 3.255" seated to cannelure
R-P brass from mixed lot - trimmed to 2.484" - weight sorted - flash holes deburred - partial full length sized to fit Savage
CCI 200 and 250 primers
Hodgdon Superformance powder
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For what its worth RP is my go to brass.

I think its right up there with Lapua, haven't tried Norma which has a good reputation.

My 110 (somewhat modified, grin) with a bull barrel will shoot sub 1/2 MOA with proven loads using RP.

Had two rounds of 3/8 in the 308 Savage (also bull barrel) today, also RP.

I have Lapua, also some PPU (which is good stuff, about my take RP class)

180SP is a hunting bullet, anything around an inch with it is fine.

Some guns may like it, I have done better with it in Model of 1917s and my dads 1903.

If you decide to dump the RP - PM me and will see if its worth the freight.

I have shot the same loads with Lapua and it shoots as good as the big L does.
 
For what its worth RP is my go to brass.

I think its right up there with Lapua, haven't tried Norma which has a good reputation.

My 110 (somewhat modified, grin) with a bull barrel will shoot sub 1/2 MOA with proven loads using RP.

Had two rounds of 3/8 in the 308 Savage (also bull barrel) today, also RP.

I have Lapua, also some PPU (which is good stuff, about my take RP class)

180SP is a hunting bullet, anything around an inch with it is fine.

Some guns may like it, I have done better with it in Model of 1917s and my dads 1903.

If you decide to dump the RP - PM me and will see if its worth the freight.

I have shot the same loads with Lapua and it shoots as good as the big L does.
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That is very interesting. One thing to note with this brass is that it's been mixed up and never recorded, fired through two guns (and who knows how many times) and what loads so it's stretched differently. The last time I had this problem I bought the Nosler brass and everything really came together. I am also somewhat of an educated idiot in that I have read more about what I am doing than I have actually done so there are still bugs to work out of my systems. I, just before reading your comment, discovered that in my reduced full length sizing to shrink head space I did not account for varied hardness in the brass. It seems that because I used one die setting to resize them all (with tight tolerances) some of the brass fits more tightly than others into my chamber. I did notice this at the range earlier and suspected this but had to do some checking. My resized brass varies in length from head to front of shoulder by as much as .005" Does anyone agree that this is probably a large variable that needs to be dealt with?!
 
If you're brass was trimmed I'm doubting this had anything to do with your perceived problem.......which again is exactly what?

I use Remington,federal,hornady.......so on and so forth.As long as I use the same brand in my lot I see little difference in any of them.But remember I am a hunter not someone trying to shoot a 3 shot one hole group.In my bolts anything an inch and half and under is good.In my lever actions anything in the 2 to 2 1/2" is fine.They all kill what I aim at.....alls well in the world.
 
I find that my savage 110 does not like the 180 or the 150 grainers. But it shoots the 165gr sub Moa at 200 yards. I use Sierra hpbt and I use IMR 4064.

When I say it does not like I get about 1.25 to 1.58 groups at 200 using factory Remington core-lokt. But when I load it I use the Remington brass.
 
"R-P brass from mixed lot - trimmed to 2.484" - weight sorted - flash holes deburred - partial full length sized to fit Savage"

How do you "partial size" (which usually means neck size) "to fit" your rifle?

If you are resizing "mixed brass" which is all R-P, I assume these are all cases fired from various rifles. Neck sizing will return them to the rifle in which they were originally fired which is not necessarily the same as your rifle.

You need to resize these cases according to die instructions so they will fit ANY rifle. Then fire them in your Savage so the case expands to match your rifle chamber. Then you can neck size and they will all fit YOUR rifle. Or you can partially resize, which I would interpret as bumping the shoulder back 0.002" so that,once again, these cases will fit YOUR rifle.

I have used R-P cases exclusively for the last 40 years in .270(4 rifles), 7mm Rem Mag, .22-250, .338 Win Mag, .44 Mag, .300 Win Mag, 7mm STW, .243 Win.

I had an issue when I first started reloading. I bought a box of 20 new Remington .270 cases and was confused by a few being shorter than the trimmed specs. I didn't think one had to trim new brass but I was measuring just for the learning experience. I sent them back to Remington and they replaced them. Obviously someone was asleep at the quality check station. That was it. Never had another problem of any kind with R-P cases.
 
If you're brass was trimmed I'm doubting this had anything to do with your perceived problem.......which again is exactly what?
My perceived problems are the wild velocities I recorded and my shot groups. Yesterday's groups were mostly 2" at 100 yds. There would be two bullets parked 1/4" apart and one wild one sitting two inches usually high or low. On 75% of them if they were all the same velocity they would have been 3/4" groups.

I use Remington,federal,hornady.......so on and so forth.As long as I use the same brand in my lot I see little difference in any of them.But remember I am a hunter not someone trying to shoot a 3 shot one hole group.In my bolts anything an inch and half and under is good.In my lever actions anything in the 2 to 2 1/2" is fine.They all kill what I aim at.....alls well in the world.
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I could easily write these off as good enough for 100 yards. What I am striving for is consistent velocities. I was getting wild shots with 40 to 80 fps difference on the oddballs. I am most certainly OCD and this drives me f(*&^ing crazy! I put a lot of effort into being as close to perfection as I can get. I do feel like the wild velocities can and should be corrected and think that is rational. I do however need to be brought back to earth from time to time :P
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"R-P brass from mixed lot - trimmed to 2.484" - weight sorted - flash holes deburred - partial full length sized to fit Savage"
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Yes. It means I am backing my sizing die out until the bolt closes stiff and then sizing until it will close with no stiffness. The problem I had was that I set the die where it was like that but some rounds were still stiff while others were not. Had I known that I would have sized another .002" or so. I was thinking that some of the brass was work hardened more than others and sprang back from the sizing more than others. The point where the brass was hanging up was at the neck where the die was backed off. I plan to try neck sizing only in the future. I will run the same test with my Nosler brass and make no other changes next time and see what that does.

You need to resize these cases according to die instructions so they will fit ANY rifle.
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I did that.
 
If you fully resized a fired case from some other rifle according to the die instructions, it should fit in your rifle without any restriction at all. This would be the same as if you bought virgin brass and loaded it for the first time. There should be no reason to back the die out to start with and try to arbitrarily bump the shoulder back on a case fired in another rifle. You should do that after the fully resized case is fired in your rifle so the fired case conforms to your chamber, then set the shoulder back to minimize stretching with subsequent firings.

How do you determine that you "sized another 0.002"or so?" Are you using a "headspace gauge" that is caliber specific and attaches to your caliper or ar you arbitrarily turning the die down and assuming you are moving 0.002"?

The headspace gauge is similar to a bullet comparator gauge for seating bullets. Both are available from Stoney Point Products, and I believe, Hornady. There may be others. RCBC makes a "Mic" for each caliber and I used several of them before I came across the Stoney Point Heads space gauge. I discontinued use of the "Mics" because I found it difficult to consistently duplicate a reading as a slight degree of over- or under travel as you spin the tool caused disparate readings. The caliper is more precise.
 
I am also somewhat of an educated idiot in that I have read more about what I am doing than I have actually done so there are still bugs to work out of my systems. I, just before reading your comment, discovered that in my reduced full length sizing to shrink head space I did not account for varied hardness in the brass
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reduced full length sizing to shrink head space
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The case does not have head space so in your effort to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head you could have increased the clearance between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber. or, you could have reduced the clearance between the shoulder of the case to the shoulder of the chamber.

One day when you get it all sorted out you will determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and then sort cases that are longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I understand that is soooo confusing but by that time you will understand it is easier to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head than it is to push/bump the shoulder back.

My favorite case is a case that will not chamber because it is too long from the shoulder to the case head, my least favorite case is a case that is too short from the shoulder to the case head. Reloaders claim they have there way with the shoulder of the case, they believe they can move/bump it back, they claim they can move it forward, it is less complicated when they understand what is happening.

R-P cases: I have found difference between R-P cases when compared with other cases, I have been told by experts those difference do not count. I am the fan of determining what a rifle likes, I have had groups move but I have not found flyers, I have found groups that shared the same hole; and then I have duplicated the 120 round-12 different loads with different cases, bullets and powders in an effort to determine if the results was the same with another shooter.

F. Guffey
 
Had I known that I would have sized another .002" or so. I was thinking that some of the brass was work hardened more than others and sprang back from the sizing more than others.
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For years and years I have said the case posses the ability to resist sizing, some cases have more resistance to sizing than others. And for years and years etc. I have suggested the reloader should become familiar with the feeler gage. If the reloader understood the feeler gage they could determine if the die made it to the shell holder when the ram is raised, If the shell holder does not stuff the case into the die there will be a gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, Before lowering the ram the reloader can determine if the case won of if the press, die and shell holder won. And I have said I have a lot of trouble making some lubes look good. I am not much on siding.

And then? Before that the reloader should verify the die and shell holder, the reloader could use a new-never fired case. The reloader could start by adjusting the die down an additional 1/4 turn, after the preverbal 1/4 turn the reloader can size a new case and then remove the die with the case without lowering the ram. After removing the die with the sized case the reloader should be able to measure case head protrusion from the die. In the perfect world the case head protrusion should be .125".

I could ask where does the .125" comes from? To give most reloaders a head start I will repeat myself; the deck height of the shell holder is .125" unless someone had gone happy with the grinder etc. when trying to compensate for cases that have too much resistance to sizing.

F. Guffey
 
How do you determine that you "sized another 0.002"or so?" Are you using a "headspace gauge" that is caliber specific and attaches to your caliper or ar you arbitrarily turning the die down and assuming you are moving 0.002"?
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By turning the die and measuring with a caliper from the top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die. I wish I had the headspace gauge.

Also the brass fire from the Enfield was fully resized and fired through the Savage before it was "custom" sized.

My Nosler brass was sized at the same time without ever changing the die and loaded up and all of them chamber flawlessly. We shall see how they perform on the chronograph...
 
My RP is sorted out as range once fired pickup or orders once fired pickup.

I also anneal.

I would do a full size and setup and make sure with a shoulder comparoter (Hornady)

https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-HK66...44003&sr=8-1&keywords=hornady+case+comparator

If your cases have been fired enough, you may be getting into no longer elastic and not moving back.

Either new cases or have to move to annealing to solve that one.

The compactor you measure before, then see how much its moved back after.

Then the next firing forms a base and you should be able to bump them back .002 or so and be good. If they don't bump back its the anneal or new brass.

There are a number of companies that offer once fired. I go with RP as its generally available and good. I have had poor results with FC (also generally available)

Winchester is ok, the rest is over priced for what you get IMO. I have seen runs of Nossler, Horandy brass etc, it did not hold up as well as RP.

Norma is very good but also very costly.
 
If you fully resized a fired case from some other rifle according to the die instructions, it should fit in your rifle without any restriction at all.
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Funny you should mention that: When I fully resize it actually resizes it too far by several thousandths.

The case does not have head space so in your effort to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head you could have increased the clearance between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber. or, you could have reduced the clearance between the shoulder of the case to the shoulder of the chamber.
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WHat I meant was that I am trying to minimize headspace by reducing my sizing die depth.
 
How do you determine that you "sized another 0.002"or so?" Are you using a "headspace gauge" that is caliber specific and attaches to your caliper or ar you arbitrarily turning the die down and assuming you are moving 0.002"?
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I do not know what he is using, he could be using the comparator that reloaders call a 'head space gage', not me, My cases do not have head space and ever tool I have is not a head space gage so I will make a wild guess and say he is using a case gage, one more time, a gage that measures the length of a case from the shoulder/datum is not a head space gage.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/291455941116

Mitutoyo does not and never has sold a head space gage with a dial indicator attached.

F. Guffey
 
I do not know what he is using, he could be using the comparator that reloaders call a 'head space gage', not me, My cases do not have head space and ever tool I have is not a head space gage so I will make a wild guess and say he is using a case gage, one more time, a gage that measures the length of a case from the shoulder/datum is not a head space gage.
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You missed my comment above. I am turning the die and measuring the difference. I used a friend's Case length headspace gauge to tell that I was resizing to far.
 
I used a friend's Case length headspace gauge to tell that I was resizing to far.
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I would determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face, If I was sizing and measuring and sizing and measuring again I would be using a comparator, My cases do not have head space, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

F. Guffey
 
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