Hi im 18 and looking to buy my first rifle ive done a lot of research and ive narrowed it down to a 25-06 or a .280. Im in the $450-650$ range and Im not against used rifles. As far as I know there arent any .280s you can buy for under a grand so im sticking with the 06. Guns that ive been considering are the Tikka T3 Lite, Howa M1500 Houge, TC Venture Blued (just yesterday i Iinspected a used venture overall I was impressed with the quality of the gun but the stock seemed a bit hollow and there were some scratches up the barrel, for $400 I was tempted to jump on it and try doctering up the scratches later down the road), im not really a fan of savages or newer remingtons either. I plan on reloading and I have been looking at a Burris 3x-9x 40mm Fullfield II scope aswell. Im open to suggestions and id like to hear your opinions on these rifles.
Suggestions for first rifle in 25-06
- Thread starter Wrought
- Start date
Tikka, .280 Rem is possible.
If you're intending to hunt, always buy the best quality equipment. 35 miles from the nearest town that probably won't have parts to fix a lesser quality rifle/scope will turn what might have been a fantastic memory in to an exposition of your cuss word library.
Save your money until you can afford good-to-stellar quality. You'll be glad you did.
BTW, some 2 decades ago, my friend took a cheap scope on a Rocky Mountain mule deer hunt -35 miles from the nearest town- where he missed a morning's hunt because his cheap scope fogged. Not good.
One last point: I think that the .280 Rem is the closest cartridge to North America big game hunting Nirvana as it gets. A .280 Rem would have made me a one-gun hunter. But were I to have no plans of shooting 175 grain bullets, a .270 Win would be just as good.
If you're intending to hunt, always buy the best quality equipment. 35 miles from the nearest town that probably won't have parts to fix a lesser quality rifle/scope will turn what might have been a fantastic memory in to an exposition of your cuss word library.
Save your money until you can afford good-to-stellar quality. You'll be glad you did.
BTW, some 2 decades ago, my friend took a cheap scope on a Rocky Mountain mule deer hunt -35 miles from the nearest town- where he missed a morning's hunt because his cheap scope fogged. Not good.
One last point: I think that the .280 Rem is the closest cartridge to North America big game hunting Nirvana as it gets. A .280 Rem would have made me a one-gun hunter. But were I to have no plans of shooting 175 grain bullets, a .270 Win would be just as good.
Of the lot you mentioned I would only say to look carefully at the lack of service Tikka has.
I am a full time gunsmith. In the last 3 years I have now had 3 Tikkas come to my shop with the bolt broken out at the dovetail that they cut to insert the bolt handle.
I called them on the phone to ask for replacement bolts all 3 times so the customers could hear them and talk to them.
Tikkas response?
Tough!
No repair.
No replacement bolt.
No part for sale.
No service at all.
No option except to buy a new rifle, which they offer to you AT FULL RETAIL!
They don't even offer you a discount.
All 3 customers did buy new rifles. One bought a Ruger, one bought a Winchester and one bought a Howa.
Tikkas are super smooth and super accurate, but they have no customer service for defects at all. And I do mean none!
That alone is a reason for me to not buy one and let everyone know why.
I am a full time gunsmith. In the last 3 years I have now had 3 Tikkas come to my shop with the bolt broken out at the dovetail that they cut to insert the bolt handle.
I called them on the phone to ask for replacement bolts all 3 times so the customers could hear them and talk to them.
Tikkas response?
Tough!
No repair.
No replacement bolt.
No part for sale.
No service at all.
No option except to buy a new rifle, which they offer to you AT FULL RETAIL!
They don't even offer you a discount.
All 3 customers did buy new rifles. One bought a Ruger, one bought a Winchester and one bought a Howa.
Tikkas are super smooth and super accurate, but they have no customer service for defects at all. And I do mean none!
That alone is a reason for me to not buy one and let everyone know why.
Wyosmith,
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that Tikka was as good of quality as Sako. I own two Sako rifles. My 7MM Rem Mag AV is by far the most accurate rifle I own. In fact, it's the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. However, the darn thing weighs a good 10 pounds, which I found out when hunting Star Valley that I'd feel every ounce of it when cresting ridges. But being miles from Afton, and miles from the nearest road, it was very comforting to know that I was hunting with a 100% reliable rifle.
A couple seasons ago, my bonus points paid off when I got into what some consider the best trophy bull elk unit in the USA. One 160 grain partition through a HUGE bull's heart killed him. If it's a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, I hunting with Sako. If I'm drawn for desert bighorn this year (I have a lot of bonus points) I'll be hunting with my Sako .270 Win.
At about 2k per copy, a new Sako is a lot of money. By no means am I rich. I'd rather pay for quality when it might determine success or misery. From experience of others, lesser quality is not always a wise investment.
I've never had to use Sako customer service because my Sakos haven't had to be serviced. So I have no idea of Sako's customer service. However, I am wise enough to take a gunsmith's word when it comes to such things.
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that Tikka was as good of quality as Sako. I own two Sako rifles. My 7MM Rem Mag AV is by far the most accurate rifle I own. In fact, it's the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. However, the darn thing weighs a good 10 pounds, which I found out when hunting Star Valley that I'd feel every ounce of it when cresting ridges. But being miles from Afton, and miles from the nearest road, it was very comforting to know that I was hunting with a 100% reliable rifle.
A couple seasons ago, my bonus points paid off when I got into what some consider the best trophy bull elk unit in the USA. One 160 grain partition through a HUGE bull's heart killed him. If it's a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, I hunting with Sako. If I'm drawn for desert bighorn this year (I have a lot of bonus points) I'll be hunting with my Sako .270 Win.
At about 2k per copy, a new Sako is a lot of money. By no means am I rich. I'd rather pay for quality when it might determine success or misery. From experience of others, lesser quality is not always a wise investment.
I've never had to use Sako customer service because my Sakos haven't had to be serviced. So I have no idea of Sako's customer service. However, I am wise enough to take a gunsmith's word when it comes to such things.
Tika: thank you, I had a feeling that those were awfully finely engineered and what would you get if it broke.
OP: What are you going to do with the rifle? Hunt (varmints) or target shoot? 25-06 is a great varmint gun, a 280 is a better hunting round and a 25-06 with a heavy barrel (HB) is a good target as well (keep in mind barrel burn out at the higher velocity will take place)
That said, if you go the hot 06 varmint route then you are better off with a Savage that you can easily replace the barrel on.
Cablelas is also offering a Remington HB in that caliber (25-06) as well as 308, 223 I think and a couple others up past your caliber choice.
Remington needs a gun smith to change the barrel but barrels are readily available.
OP: What are you going to do with the rifle? Hunt (varmints) or target shoot? 25-06 is a great varmint gun, a 280 is a better hunting round and a 25-06 with a heavy barrel (HB) is a good target as well (keep in mind barrel burn out at the higher velocity will take place)
That said, if you go the hot 06 varmint route then you are better off with a Savage that you can easily replace the barrel on.
Cablelas is also offering a Remington HB in that caliber (25-06) as well as 308, 223 I think and a couple others up past your caliber choice.
Remington needs a gun smith to change the barrel but barrels are readily available.
Thanks for the input i think im going to opt for a higher quality rifle somewhere in the $800-1200$ range. Yes I do hunt I live in Pennsylvania there are some pretty nice vistas around where I hunt so I can shoot out to 300 yards or so. For the last few years ive hunted with my grandfathers zastava mark x .270 with a 26 inch barrel its heavy as heck but shoots like a champ. Already having a .270 at my disposal makes me want the 25-06 over the .280 even more. I could use it for varmints, coyotes and deer and probably drive tacks with it at the range. Thanks Wyosmith for the advice on the tikka ill shy away from them I did hold one and the bolt was very smooth but it also felt very loose I believe theyre not all theyre cracked up to be.
Wrought,
I'd rather buy a high-quality used rifle than a new rifle the quality of which is questionable.
It might be wise to ask Wyosmith what he would recommend. Living in the big game hunter's paradise state and being a gunsmith, I'd give his words a whole lot of consideration.
One final thought: the best rifle if the world would be useless to you if it's not right for you. If it doesn't fit right, is too heavy, doesn't balance correctly for you, is not ergonomically suited for you, look for another.
One serious flaw of factory rifles is length-of-pull. If it's too short, it might be too expensive to correct. If it's too long for you, a smith can shorten it to perfectly fit you.
BTW, the .25/06 Rem is an excellent cartridge. However, it usually comes in 24" barrels. A .25/06 will kill elk if you can put a bullet where it needs to go. Elk don't know caliber of bullet that destroyed its heart. Were it me, I'd go with a 22" barreled .270 Win or .280 Rem. I like fast-handling rifles, as light as possible while retaining accuracy. A rifle is useless if it ain't accurate.
I doubt if you'd see damage difference of any of the three on coyotes. I'm sure all three with vaporize a coyote.
Best of luck to you.
I'd rather buy a high-quality used rifle than a new rifle the quality of which is questionable.
It might be wise to ask Wyosmith what he would recommend. Living in the big game hunter's paradise state and being a gunsmith, I'd give his words a whole lot of consideration.
One final thought: the best rifle if the world would be useless to you if it's not right for you. If it doesn't fit right, is too heavy, doesn't balance correctly for you, is not ergonomically suited for you, look for another.
One serious flaw of factory rifles is length-of-pull. If it's too short, it might be too expensive to correct. If it's too long for you, a smith can shorten it to perfectly fit you.
BTW, the .25/06 Rem is an excellent cartridge. However, it usually comes in 24" barrels. A .25/06 will kill elk if you can put a bullet where it needs to go. Elk don't know caliber of bullet that destroyed its heart. Were it me, I'd go with a 22" barreled .270 Win or .280 Rem. I like fast-handling rifles, as light as possible while retaining accuracy. A rifle is useless if it ain't accurate.
I doubt if you'd see damage difference of any of the three on coyotes. I'm sure all three with vaporize a coyote.
Best of luck to you.
Thanks SansSouci I appreciate your help with this. Im now considering a Winchester M70, a Ruger Hawkeye, and Howas m1500. Ill definitely see what Wyosmith recommends. Ive heard nothing but good things about howa rifles and for the price i could buy a nice laminated stock that I could glass bed it in. I dont mind putting some work into this as long as I know ill get good results.
Pathfinder45
New member
Model 70 Winchester, for sure. But it may be tricky to find one in 280 or 26-06. However, 270 versions will be easy to find and will do everything the other two calibers will do.
Honestly I dont think the 80 fps that id lose from the 2 inches of barrel makes that big of a difference to the deer and its not like ill be shooting 700yards either. I think the 22 inch barrel will serve me well until I shoot it out then I can invest in a 24 or 26 inch barrel and use it for my ridgetop sniper
handlerer2
New member
All of the rifles mentioned will serve any shooter well, IMO.
I would choose the Howa. The Howa is actually an improved version of the Sako L-61. The action is considered by many to be the state of the art for push feed rifles.
This action has been used by several manufacturers, the Weatherby Vanguard, SW 1500, Colt may have used it on their brief rifle offering.
I have read that Roy Weatherby obtained thew rights to this action, but when his contractor could not make production, he went to Howa.
I own and reload for, amoung others, a Vanguard in 300WBY. This a romping, stomping chambering that is suitable for any game in North America and the world really. That said it isn't easy to shoot. The factory target is .7". My son and I have come close, but haven't quite beaten the factory target.
What makes the L-61 different from most rifles of the market today is that it is just about the last push feed made the old way. The receiver is machined from a solid billit with an integral machined recoil lug. The bolt is also machined from a solid billet, bolt handle and all.
Most modern push feeds, Rem 700, Browning, Tikka, are drilled bar stock with washered recoil lug, and a braised, fused partially hollow bolt. That said these designs have a reputation for accuracy and are durable as necessary. I have owned MDL 700's and they are as serviceable as any rifles on the market.
When I bought my Vanguard, there were a 270, and 25-06, stainless, synthetic on sale beside the 300WBY that I purchased. The price that was $379. That was in '07.
I will try to attach the factory target. Good luck.
I would choose the Howa. The Howa is actually an improved version of the Sako L-61. The action is considered by many to be the state of the art for push feed rifles.
This action has been used by several manufacturers, the Weatherby Vanguard, SW 1500, Colt may have used it on their brief rifle offering.
I have read that Roy Weatherby obtained thew rights to this action, but when his contractor could not make production, he went to Howa.
I own and reload for, amoung others, a Vanguard in 300WBY. This a romping, stomping chambering that is suitable for any game in North America and the world really. That said it isn't easy to shoot. The factory target is .7". My son and I have come close, but haven't quite beaten the factory target.
What makes the L-61 different from most rifles of the market today is that it is just about the last push feed made the old way. The receiver is machined from a solid billit with an integral machined recoil lug. The bolt is also machined from a solid billet, bolt handle and all.
Most modern push feeds, Rem 700, Browning, Tikka, are drilled bar stock with washered recoil lug, and a braised, fused partially hollow bolt. That said these designs have a reputation for accuracy and are durable as necessary. I have owned MDL 700's and they are as serviceable as any rifles on the market.
When I bought my Vanguard, there were a 270, and 25-06, stainless, synthetic on sale beside the 300WBY that I purchased. The price that was $379. That was in '07.
I will try to attach the factory target. Good luck.
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I doubt you'd see 50 fps difference between 22" and 24" and then only if you cut a 24" barrel down. There is a far greater difference between individual barrels than 2" makes. You're just as likely to see an individual 22" barrel shoot faster than a 24" barrel as you are to see the 24" barrel be significantly faster.
Not a fan of anything in 25 caliber. There are no options for decent bullets. They look good at the muzzle, but a 243 with the better bullet options shoots faster, flatter and hits harder past 200-300 yards. The 243 shoots 105's to the same speed as the 25-06 shoots 115's. No animal will ever notice 10 gr of bullet weight nor .014" of bullet diameter. But because the 243 bullets are so much more aerodynamic they quickly outpace the 25-06 as range increases.
A 243 or 25-06 will work just fine on deer size game and still be borderline acceptable for game up to elk. They are a better option for varmints and smaller game as well A 280 would be a better option for deer and game larger than deer, less than optimal for varmints or smaller stuff.
Not a fan of anything in 25 caliber. There are no options for decent bullets. They look good at the muzzle, but a 243 with the better bullet options shoots faster, flatter and hits harder past 200-300 yards. The 243 shoots 105's to the same speed as the 25-06 shoots 115's. No animal will ever notice 10 gr of bullet weight nor .014" of bullet diameter. But because the 243 bullets are so much more aerodynamic they quickly outpace the 25-06 as range increases.
A 243 or 25-06 will work just fine on deer size game and still be borderline acceptable for game up to elk. They are a better option for varmints and smaller game as well A 280 would be a better option for deer and game larger than deer, less than optimal for varmints or smaller stuff.
Thanks for the info handlerer im definitely buying a howa if I get a new rifle. Im not exactly limited to the 25-06 its just that my grandfather owns a 30-06 and a .270 and a 7mm-08 and reloads for them so a .280 or 25-06 will fill the void in selection and I wouldn't have to buy much brass to reload. I would buy a .308 or a .260 in a heart beat if they were the right make and model.
Hello to all.
I also have no knowledge about SAKOs customer service because I have never had one go bad on me in the 48 years I have done gunsmithing. But the SAKO action doesn't have the same weakness at the bolt root as the Tikka, so I have not had to do anything with them. Not the new 60 degree actions and not the old actions either.
Now if I am asked what is the very best commercial rifle you can buy in 2016 I would have to answer Winchester M-70, followed closely by the Ruger M-77 Mk2
My all time favorite bolt actions are classic Mausers made on the 98 system, but that is because I have a deep- love for 1920-1930 vintage arms and I love the way the 98 looks. It's also the high water mark of reliability in a bolt action, but I have to admit the controlled round feed Rugers and the controlled round feed Winchesters are just as good. I just like the look of the classic Mauser a bit better.
My 2 meat guns are both custom 98s. One is my 270 and the other my 375H&H.
My 375 is on its 2nd barrel and my 270 is on its 3rd barrel. So you might guess, I have shot them both quite a lot.
I hunt every year and I have guided hunters on and off for several decades, so I have some experience with hunting. I was also the CEO of Cast Performance bullet co for a while, so I have learned a few things about terminal ballistics too.
The thing to remember over everything else is this:
Reliability is always #1 in a rifle used for hunting, and #2 is that what actually does the killing is the hole, not the shell, not the rifle, not the bullet.
Whatever you use, if you have a combination that will give you a hole of 1" diameter or larger that goes clear through an animal and you will not ever be disappointing.
That penetration and cavitation must be 100% if you want something that NEVER disappoints. Bones and angle of the body must not be a factor.
This is a bigger trick than many hunters think.
Most of us try not to shoot game in the "south side", and most of our game is taken at angles that favor the bullet. So we can go for many many years shooting a combination that can fail 30% of the time, but never be in that 30% circumstance when we shoot. That is true sportsmanship. That how we should always try to shoot. Killing a bison with an arrow is proof that even a sharp stick is good enough, if you place it right, and at the right angle.
But the question here was about the hardware, not hunting ethics. (I wish we were to discuss ethics a LOT more, but that is the subject for other times I guess)
If we never shoot at an animal in a bad position we will not be disappointed most of the time. If you shoot this way you can get by just fine with bullets that come apart and don’t penetrate well, and with bullets that veer off their terminal courses. In fact you will probably never even notice.
But if you have a bullet/rifle combo that is 100% reliable and you still never take a questionably shot you also will never be disappointed either.
It is the shots that don’t quite go as planned that make the memories, both bad ones and good ones.
Hit a twig or strike a bone that you didn’t intend to with a “so-so bullet” and things are going to become interesting. You had better be a good tracker, or in the worst case, you’d better be "cool under fire" because if the game is a big bear, a buffalo, or in a few cases a mad dog or hog, you may get a closer shot than you’d like to have.
I am a big fan of exit wounds. As a guide and having hunting in a lot of different places, I can tell you a few stories about loooooong tracking jobs. I personally have never had to kill a game animal that was charging me, but I did kill a Doberman once that was. As CEO of Cast performance I did get to talk to about 20 other men (and one woman) who have been charged by game and most do not recommend it.
Anyway, I am rambling here.
But the best advice I can give you is this:
Get the rifle you like, but be careful to get one that has the reputation for functioning without failure.
Get a caliber you like, but remember that having a bullet exit after hitting bone is a better test of a hunting round than one hole accuracy is. Deer and elk are not so small you need ¼” groups. In most cases a rifle that will shoot ¼ MOA with a match grade bullet will still shoot ¾ with a hunting bullet.
Use the right bullet for the purpose. You would not try to frame a house with a tack hammer if you can have a framing hammer. Don’t try to kill game with match bullets when you can use real hunting bullets.
Note, Some match bullets are called hunting bullets by their makers. Don’t believe it until you know it is a hunting bullet. Your objective is to kill the game clean.
Their objective is to sell you something and make money.
Lastly, and MOST IMPORTANT is this:
It is always 98% the man and 2% what he is carrying.
I also have no knowledge about SAKOs customer service because I have never had one go bad on me in the 48 years I have done gunsmithing. But the SAKO action doesn't have the same weakness at the bolt root as the Tikka, so I have not had to do anything with them. Not the new 60 degree actions and not the old actions either.
Now if I am asked what is the very best commercial rifle you can buy in 2016 I would have to answer Winchester M-70, followed closely by the Ruger M-77 Mk2
My all time favorite bolt actions are classic Mausers made on the 98 system, but that is because I have a deep- love for 1920-1930 vintage arms and I love the way the 98 looks. It's also the high water mark of reliability in a bolt action, but I have to admit the controlled round feed Rugers and the controlled round feed Winchesters are just as good. I just like the look of the classic Mauser a bit better.
My 2 meat guns are both custom 98s. One is my 270 and the other my 375H&H.
My 375 is on its 2nd barrel and my 270 is on its 3rd barrel. So you might guess, I have shot them both quite a lot.
I hunt every year and I have guided hunters on and off for several decades, so I have some experience with hunting. I was also the CEO of Cast Performance bullet co for a while, so I have learned a few things about terminal ballistics too.
The thing to remember over everything else is this:
Reliability is always #1 in a rifle used for hunting, and #2 is that what actually does the killing is the hole, not the shell, not the rifle, not the bullet.
Whatever you use, if you have a combination that will give you a hole of 1" diameter or larger that goes clear through an animal and you will not ever be disappointing.
That penetration and cavitation must be 100% if you want something that NEVER disappoints. Bones and angle of the body must not be a factor.
This is a bigger trick than many hunters think.
Most of us try not to shoot game in the "south side", and most of our game is taken at angles that favor the bullet. So we can go for many many years shooting a combination that can fail 30% of the time, but never be in that 30% circumstance when we shoot. That is true sportsmanship. That how we should always try to shoot. Killing a bison with an arrow is proof that even a sharp stick is good enough, if you place it right, and at the right angle.
But the question here was about the hardware, not hunting ethics. (I wish we were to discuss ethics a LOT more, but that is the subject for other times I guess)
If we never shoot at an animal in a bad position we will not be disappointed most of the time. If you shoot this way you can get by just fine with bullets that come apart and don’t penetrate well, and with bullets that veer off their terminal courses. In fact you will probably never even notice.
But if you have a bullet/rifle combo that is 100% reliable and you still never take a questionably shot you also will never be disappointed either.
It is the shots that don’t quite go as planned that make the memories, both bad ones and good ones.
Hit a twig or strike a bone that you didn’t intend to with a “so-so bullet” and things are going to become interesting. You had better be a good tracker, or in the worst case, you’d better be "cool under fire" because if the game is a big bear, a buffalo, or in a few cases a mad dog or hog, you may get a closer shot than you’d like to have.
I am a big fan of exit wounds. As a guide and having hunting in a lot of different places, I can tell you a few stories about loooooong tracking jobs. I personally have never had to kill a game animal that was charging me, but I did kill a Doberman once that was. As CEO of Cast performance I did get to talk to about 20 other men (and one woman) who have been charged by game and most do not recommend it.
Anyway, I am rambling here.
But the best advice I can give you is this:
Get the rifle you like, but be careful to get one that has the reputation for functioning without failure.
Get a caliber you like, but remember that having a bullet exit after hitting bone is a better test of a hunting round than one hole accuracy is. Deer and elk are not so small you need ¼” groups. In most cases a rifle that will shoot ¼ MOA with a match grade bullet will still shoot ¾ with a hunting bullet.
Use the right bullet for the purpose. You would not try to frame a house with a tack hammer if you can have a framing hammer. Don’t try to kill game with match bullets when you can use real hunting bullets.
Note, Some match bullets are called hunting bullets by their makers. Don’t believe it until you know it is a hunting bullet. Your objective is to kill the game clean.
Their objective is to sell you something and make money.
Lastly, and MOST IMPORTANT is this:
It is always 98% the man and 2% what he is carrying.
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