Suggestions for Defensive 9mm?

Off topic reply

Sorry for the off topic reply but the US is different from Britain and presumably Canada. Foremost, the UK has the Common Sense doctrine, the US doesn't. For Americans that don't know it, I've heard that if you stand on top of a ladder, begin to lose your balance, and fall off, it's your fault because Common Sense says.. In the US, you need a sign..

A case that I repeatedly think of is the Squirrel Gun case in California. There, a person who kept his parent's home in pristine condition in memory of them. The house was burglarized. And so, the Defendant put signs up and set up a .22 pointed at the door. This burglar got shot as a result. The burglar ended up owning the house. The point I'm trying to make is that just because the burglar is the bad guy for trespassing and wasn't suppose tobe there stealing, don't assume the court is going to agree with you.

If anyone knows or can show any case law that supports factory ammo use over handloads in self-defense, that would be appreciated.
 
Consider this:
Ammo makers = Deep pockets.
Handloader = Not so much.
If some is after financial gain, who do you want them coming after?
You make the ammo, you own all risk.
Use Federal HydroShock Hollow Points, and they have to stand with you.
Using factory ammo has the potential to spread that Risk.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
I am not a lawyer, either, but I think it's the former.

Something that doesn't work in your favor is simply a non-issue at trial. It's irrelevant and immaterial. If the prosecutor can bring it up and potentially use it against you, that's a detriment. That's more than just not working in your favor.
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The “if” and “potentially” declare there might be a possibility. But neither you nor I have shown specific evidence of this being done, nor to what degree that it was used against an individual. Like I said in the first place, I am inclined to use factory ammo, but I am not inclined to have my life dictated by every “if” that I hear might “potentially” be used against me.

I have found Remington Golden Sabers to be useful, as well as Gold Dots, both 124 grain. CFE Pistol works quite well for either bullet. Performance and accuracy for me is quite good. And, I have a lot of confidence in what I load to go bang when it should and perform well within the range of standard 9mm performance. I do not try to achieve +p loads with any defensive ammo.

I have used Blue Dot with 124 Golden Sabers too. Useful load, but I prefer CFE Pistol.
 
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It would be great if people started a new thread for the utterly off-topic legal advice which is killing this one.

I saw Lehigh ammo on the web, but I don't know much about it. I'll check it out.
 
burbank jung said:
If anyone knows or can show any case law that supports factory ammo use over handloads in self-defense, that would be appreciated.
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Did you read the post Spats McGee wrote, and referenced in his post #8 above? Have you read any of the several similar posts moderator Frank Ettin (also an attorney) has written on this topic? The point isn't whether or not you can find case low that "supports" the use of factory ammunition. The problem is that NOT using factory ammunition can greatly complicate your defense if you are charged, because of the problems with evidence. If you use Winchester's Golden Zombie Blaster XTL ammunition, Winchester can tell a ballistics examiner what powder they use and the examiner can fire some test ammo of that brand and weight to create a representative baseline sample for comparison of gunshot residue.

You can't do that with your handloads. You may keep the best records in the world, but they're your records, not records from a neutral, objective, uninvolved third party. And that means your records may not be admissible or, if they are admitted, they can be attacked.

The reasoning behind only carrying factory ammunition for self defense is to NOT provide a prosecutor with something he can use to attack you.

From Spats' article at the link above:

Spats McGee said:
There are a lot of moving pieces here. I know that. However, it’s as much about the stakes as the odds, right? The odds of ever having to use the gun I carry are extremely slim, but if I ever do have to, the stakes are incredibly high: The lives of myself and my family. The Peculiar Problem of Handloads is similar. The odds of handloads ever developing into a real legal problem for someone involved in a SD shooting are very low. If it does, however, the stakes are very high. The use of handloads can muddy the evidentiary waters, causing incorrect conclusions from investigators, experts, and the prosecutors who rely on them. In turn, that could lead to incorrect criminal charges, or necessitate the hiring of additional experts on the defense side to head off whatever problems may have been caused. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t have tens of thousands of dollars to hire extra experts for my criminal defense. Heaven forbid that I’m ever involved in a shooting, but I don’t want the waters muddied. I want the evidence to be as clear and simple as I can make it.
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I handload my range ammo. I enjoy reloading. I know commercial self-defense ammunition costs a buck a round (or more). How many people do you plan to shoot? Two boxes will last you for years. I just don't see the point of intentionally doing something that could make your lawyer's job more difficult by orders of magnitude.
 
Peter Luger designed the Luger pistol for trunjicated cone projectiles.
Which the Germans used before the Geneva convention.
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Who is Peter Luger?? :rolleyes:

A couple of the Geneva conventions predate the 9mm Luger's general adoption by the German Army in 1908, and if you're referring to not using hollowpoints, etc., That not the Geneva convention its the Hague convention (aka Hague Accords) which were 1899 and 1907.

I don't have a particular 9mm "carry load" I don't carry a 9mm. If I did, I'd pick a factory load for carry, just as I do with the .45 and .38, and .32acp that I do sometimes carry.
 
Do trunjicated cone bullets glow in the dark? (I assume that word is a trick of memory confabulating Trijicon and truncated).;)

Peter is Georg's older, smarter brother.

The warnings are probably a good idea in threads like this for the same reason the required hot load warning is a good idea: the board doesn't want responsibility for promoting something that could get someone into trouble in the worst extreme. The information has now been made available to readers to make their own decisions in this regard, and that is positive. More information is almost always better than too little.

That said, knowing how to handload for self-defense is not useless information. We could probably all agree that we would want the ability to assemble such loads in a post-apocalyptic scenario, which the current pandemic reminds us is never 100% out of the question. Besides, most of us load such things or close to them for practice and experimentation anyway. I suggest providing that information to Swifty if we have it.

Being "old-school", my SD Ammo (Federal HST) and my SD mimic rounds are all .45 Auto, so I won't be much use here. But if I were looking for a load I could mimic closely in 9 mm, I would pick something like the Golden Sabre or the Gold Dot. Something that is available both as loaded ammunition and as component bullets. I would then buy a box or two of the maker's loaded ammo and shoot it over my chronograph to find out what velocity it actually produces in my particular gun and what its SD looks like in my particular gun, based on the assumption the manufacturer has some idea what the best defensive load ballistics for his bullet look like. I would then scour published load data to find candidate powders for working up to that same velocity safely and proceed.

All that said, occasionally one may run into loads that use proprietary powders, and that, therefore, cannot be readily mimicked safely. In that case, you are out of luck with your bullet choice until someone makes such a powder available on the market, and it's time to look at another bullet candidate.
 
Coffee Mix

Hi Uncle Nick,

I'll put this out for the sake of argument.

Have you ever noticed that coffee blends are a mix of various baked coffee beans?

I wonder, if given similar shaped powder with a close burn rate, and obtain a load pretty close to a factory load. Relying on such a load us mute as we Reloaders know because we get pretty good results with the current components. But, I'm putting this out there just to talk about.
 
Golden Sabre components are JUNK. I've still got ~100 45 ACP that are undersized even for bore riders; they don't measure up on the driving band as measured by my Browne & Sharpe calipers. Factory: use at your own peril.
 
burbank: Starburnts is Starburnts due to the blend being distributed nationally. Your coffe house blend in the Burbs will be different than that in the Beach Cities due to differing sourcing. You might get close but you won't get the same flavor. Same goes for powder. It either is or is not.
 
Unclenick said:
Being "old-school", my SD Ammo (Federal HST) and my SD mimic rounds are all .45 Auto, so I won't be much use here. But if I were looking for a load I could mimic closely in 9 mm, I would pick something like the Golden Sabre or the Gold Dot. Something that is available both as loaded ammunition and as component bullets. I would then buy a box or two of the maker's loaded ammo and shoot it over my chronograph to find out what velocity it actually produces in my particular gun and what its SD looks like in my particular gun, based on the assumption the manufacturer has some idea what the best defensive load ballistics for his bullet look like. I would then scour published load data to find candidate powders for working up to that same velocity safely and proceed.
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I just went down this path.

Out of my 1911, factory Golden Saber 124-grain clocked 1,031 fps, and measured 1.125" C.O.L. Seeking to match that in a load for testing function in project pistols, I settled on Berry's 124-grain hybrid hollow-point because it has a very similar profile to the Golden Saber. Using Winchester 231 for powder, I found that 3.9 grains loaded to a C.O.L. of 1.125" produced 970 fps. 4.3 grains loaded to a C.O.L. of 1.121" generated 1,051 fps.
 
Interestingly, the original 9mm Luger load was a 124gr at 1050fps (100mm barrel).

The load was changed to a 115gr at 1150fps shortly before WW I.
 
I think Hydra-shok bullets are sold by Federal for reloading, although I do not know if they are available in this environment of viral difficulty and shortages. Either those or the Speer Gold Dots would make good handloaded ammo.

Whenever people talk about the legal aspects of using handloaded ammo for self-defense, I always think of two things: 1. Crime, in fact murder, does occur at gun ranges. Am I supposed to not shoot to stop someone who is threatening my life at the range because I've got reloaded ammo in the gun that happens to be in my hand? 2. I'm really, really going to make an extra effort to avoid being in a situation where I ever have to pull a trigger with a gun pointed at another human being. I know we can not control everything that happens in life, (e.g., see my point number 1, above), but I've gone more than 50 years of living without having to kill anyone and I'd like to put in another 50 without killing anyone. So, if I ever actually have to use a gun for self-defense, I am really going to be counting on that being an absolute last-ditch effort to save my own life and hence I am really expecting that the case for my use of self-defense will be obvious. What ammo I had in the gun should not be a factor, I surely hope.
 
Carrying a loaded pistol, with a License to make that carry legal.
For self-defence, is a good idea, I have done that for many years. In talking to people about fights they have been in, in Florida? As adults, 18 Y-O-A and up?
Lots of "Never" answers.

I was born in the UK, lived for 3 years in Australia, 30 years in Liverpool UK prior to that. Then many years in Canda. In Florida for 17 years, both my wife and I are citizens. For 5 years 25 till 30 YOA. 1960 till 1965. I worked on clubs, the first 4 years at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame. Thur-Fri-Sat nights. 7 PM,
till 11, - 11-30 PM. Lots of fights stabbed twice.

What I would like to state, lots of times, it is hands-on first. Depending on an assessment of what is required first! Handing out a broken nose can stop the need to produce a 9mm pistol. As mostly my wife of 29 years, is with me. So there is my first concern. I had to dissuade a young man (had a few drinks in him) we were in an elevator. Just three of us. When his statement to the crowd, (only 3 of us) "I need a hug!" caused him to fall against the rear wall of the elevator! Before he did that. Hugging that is. I was carrying a Glock 19, a folding knife also. Oh, by the way, I was 69 years of age at that time.
His contact with the safety bar (middle of his back) caused him to rethink his stated intentions. He had a Martine glass in his hand at the time! A No-No.

So everything is not bullets flying. Your choice.
 
This is what I use in my Glock 17. It's loaded to the same velocity as factory ammo and uses a low flash powder. It's way cheaper than Speer ammo too.

Bullet: Speer 115 gr. Gold Dot HP
Powder: Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.95 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol
Case: Federal (2-Dot)
OAL: 1.125
Average Velocity: 1199.69 fps
ES: 36.00
SD: 11.21
 
To original poster...here is good advice.

Try some different loads that have POI you like that fit with your sights (if they are fixed and can't move them).

you will see ALL different loads have different POI, even if its every so slight. Find the load that fits your sights and is velocity that is STD or +P.

You will be happy with that.
 
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