Sufficient Backstop for dry-fire

I had never really thought about it much, but I seem to usually make sure I have a safe backstop, anyway.

Even when just taking a "known-empty" firearm out of the safe, or picking one up off the work bench, I'll point it in a safe direction (including taking into account the potential whereabouts of persons upstairs, persons in other rooms, neighbors' homes, etc.), while verifying that it's unloaded. Occasionally, that means pointing it back into the safe. Better to splinter a bunch of rifle stocks and dent my safe, than to kill someone...

For actual dry fire, I don't remove ammunition from the room, as some would suggest. I do often use a target half way across the basement, or the "TV" (computer monitor) as my visual reference / target. But the "TV" has a safe backstop, as does the target; and dry firing doesn't happen when other people are in the basement.


A few weeks ago, I needed to run some dummy rounds through a project rifle. I know they're dummies. I put them together as dummies. They're marked as dummies. And the rifle didn't even have a hammer installed at that time, because I had previously upped the ante from dummies to live rounds (pulling the hammer is easier than removing the firing pin).
But I still walked to the other end of the house for that function testing, because the only safe backstop near the workbench at that time was a concrete wall. ...And I didn't feel like getting blasted by shrapnel if, somehow, for whatever reason, the rifle discharged.


Some call it prudence.
Some call it safety.
Some call it paranoia.
Either way... I hope to never have an ND, myself.
I've been on the other side of the wall or floor for three NDs by other people; and right behind a person that fired three rounds down their pant leg, through their shoe, and through the floor into the basement (somehow not drawing blood). It may be more paranoia for me...
 
"...Oh, yeah, dry fire. BLAM..." Operator failure. AKA stupid normal, predictable, common human mistake.
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FTFY.

pax

The most dangerous gun handlers are the ones who think they’re too safe to worry about making a mistake. – Todd Louis Green
 
As indicated previously, unload the weapon and place ammo a great distance from weapon. If using snap caps check to make sure all are in fact snap caps and check often while dry firing for loading/ unloading drills.
When the weapon is reloaded do not place it near you for a period of time for you to reprogram your brain. I once violated my own rules and had my off duty pistol on the end table while dryfiring it’s twin with a magazine of snap caps. Some sort of distraction occurred and instead of using the previously cleared pistol I picked up the loaded one and hand cycled a live round into the chamber while dumping a live round on the floor. The tree in the front yard absorbed the projectile, fortunately the only loss was a portion of window screen.
 
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No one wants to address whether a vest hanging against the wall would stop anything, run a test, or dig up a youtube video?

Being able to say "It hasn't happened to me" doesn't preclude one from being a fool.
 
Whups, sorry johnwilliamson062 -- meant to put this in my first post, got busy. :D

Keep in mind, we are in the context here of firing a single round -- most people don't keep firing after the first loud mistake. Folding etc would be much less of a concern than if we were talking about using it as a multi-shot barrier.

In any case, some friends and I took a vest to the range one day a long time ago. Hung it over a cardboard target.

Worked fine for a half-dozen shots.

Based on that experience (which was not sheet rock or an interior wall, but somewhat flimsier), I say it's trustworthy.

pax

From my own experiences and those of my peers, I have come to a very serious conclusion: the firearms fancier, collector, shooter, handler, or instructor, whether expert or not, is the most susceptible to the unintentional discharge of a firearm. – Jim Cirillo
 
The target wasn't hanging, but anchored top and bottom/all four corners?
Or was it over the target as if the target was wearing it?
I am very surprised it didn't fold the cardboard.
'Now my head hurts' surprised, just like when I found out you actually have to aim a shotgun.
 
Draped as if wearing.

1x2 uprights would have taken the bulk of the weight, IIRC. (Keep in mind, this was ... um. A few years ago.)

pax
 
There's no ammo involved with dry firing. Hence, no backstop is required.
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There's not supposed to be any ammo involved with dry firing. However, people make mistakes.

A backstop is required unless, like an acquaintance of mine, you would like to go next door and apologize to the man of the house for killing his wife when one of your dryfires turns out to not be "dry" at all. it was obviously accidental, so he was not criminally prosecuted. However, there was a civil trial and that was not a pretty thing. I guess he couldn't complain too much since he came out of it much better than the family that lost a wife & mother.
 
Wonder how this thread meshes with the over penetration & police accuracy thread.

Over there the general conclusion was with only 20% hit rates rarely anyone innocent is hit, so over penetration is a non issue.

BTW lest you get the wrong Idea I not agree with that conclusion.
 
I don't want to share the range with anyone who dry-fires without some consideration of backstop. Such contempt for safety is negligent.

Hung as if worn the 2X4 uprights would stop it from folding. It would also depend on where one shoots. I'll assume Pax shoots a reasonably small group somewhere close to center mass. someone with a larger group could run into more problems.
 
BB guns, folks cleaning or pulling triggers on guns they didn't check themselves aside.

jmo but dry fire doesn't need a backstop.
What it does require is the person unloading and visually confirming the firearm and Mag if it's a pistol have no rounds in them.

It is then a empty fire arm which will not fire.
Bullets will not magically leap from where they are back into the weapon.

That said I don't personally dry fire my weapons.
I was raised handling and shooting guns back 52 yrs ago when dry firing a handgun would get your head whacked by an adult. Firearms then could be damaged by dryfiring.
Newer models I know are built so dry fire won't hurt most of them right off, but old habits are hard to break.
Plus never saw a realistic use to dry fire.
But that's just me.
.
 
@Pax BB guns kinda a special case.. I mean true "BB" not pellet.
A lot of times they have internal reservoir where they just rattle around several 100 at a time insdie the hollow body of the gun.. easy for one to get into a crevices.

I've even had them escape the reservoir and require the gun to be taken apart to locate them.
Although generally this is on lower powered spring models.. CO2 models usually have a channel with a push rod and spring.

I don't know of any one that makes all copper BB's crossman has copper plated, the reason they're generally steal so there is usually a small magnet to hold them in place otherwise they'd roll out of the barrel.

Uh anyway I wouldn't really compare a BB gun to real gun as far as being able to check clear.

Unless you have a higher powered model it's generally easy to make a trap for indoor shooting of airguns.

P.S I dunno why the would wanna shoot out the co2 where I come from those things cost money.
It's like me firing off primed cases.
 
Ghost1958 said:
jmo but dry fire doesn't need a backstop.
What it does require is the person unloading and visually confirming the firearm and Mag if it's a pistol have no rounds in them.

It is then a empty fire arm which will not fire.
Bullets will not magically leap from where they are back into the weapon.
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This is one of the causes of negligent discharges when people say afterward, "I thought it was unloaded!"

Ghost1958, there's a reason why Pax is a nationally-known instructor. She knows what she's talking about.
 
That is why I said JMO or just my opinion.

An opinion formed over half a decade of shooting handling carrying etc hand and long guns without a nd ad etc.
Still just my opinion. No disrespect intended to Pax instructor or no. Just a different opinion based on over 50 yrs experience.
The only fact I stated is a firearm with no ammo in it will not fire. The trick again in my opinion is to know enough about your weapon to be able unload and visually confirm the weapon is unloaded. Without fail.

Again so it's not missed. Just my opinion.
 
Ghost1958 said:
Again so it's not missed. Just my opinion.
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No worries. You're definitely entitled to your opinion. I just happen to disagree with it.

I don't disagree that an unloaded firearm won't load itself. That's obviously not a disagreement here. What I disagree with is this:

Ghost1958 said:
jmo but dry fire doesn't need a backstop.
What it does require is the person unloading and visually confirming the firearm and Mag if it's a pistol have no rounds in them.
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Basically what you're saying here is that you advocate breaking two of the four safety rules when you dry fire.

The whole point of the four safety rules is that they're redundant. If I make a boneheaded move and break rule #2, it's likely nobody will get hurt if I'm still following rule #3. Intentionally breaking one rule means that you're more likely to cause an injury or fatality if you end up accidentally breaking another rule at the same time.

In my opinion, it's horribly unsafe to dry fire without a backstop. Especially for a concealed carrier. Why? Because many concealed carriers practice drawing and dry firing from the holster, as they should. But most concealed carriers carry their firearms with a round in the chamber. Sure, maybe 99.9% of the time they make sure they're drawing an empty gun from the holster, but all it takes to cause an accident is that 0.1%.

Besides, how hard is it to duct-tape a bunch of old books together? In my experience, most handgun rounds will stop in approximately 6 to 8 inches of books if shot from the front. Quadruple that to be safe, make sure the books overlap so there are no gaps, and you've got a safe backstop.
 
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An opinion formed over half a decade of shooting handling carrying etc hand and long guns without a nd ad etc.
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If you had said half a century I might give your statement more weight. Five years isn't much of a track record. When the time comes, I'm pretty good at patching drywall and can give some pointers. Hope that is all that is needed.
 
I meant century. My mistake or my phonesctendency to put in its own words.

I've been carry open a handgun since I was 7 tending stock on our farms alone. And hunting with long guns. That wasn't unusual for kids in my rural area back then.
I'm 59 now.
I believe if my math is right that's a tad over 50 yrs. Or ten lustrums.

Of course at almost sixty oldtimers could be setting in lol
 
Forgive me; I may be a little cranky on this subject. I've spent the last couple of weeks on a 'fun' project that has me extremely sensitized to the utterly stupid things that good and well-intentioned people do with firearms.

The project? Collecting personal stories of people's experiences with Unintentional, Negligent, and Accidental Discharges. I'm up to more than 500 incidents and still have thousands left to go.

After awhile, they all start to blur together. I have maybe two dozen where someone in his 50s, 60s, 70s ... in one case, his 80s ... 'celebrated' their first-ever mistake with a gun. Some of those stories were tragic.

And pretty much every one of the people in my files said, "This will never happen to me!" at some point before it ... did.

Here's one:

“I have been around guns all my life. ... I take safety seriously. I was one of those guys who always smugly mocked those idiots who put holes in their big screen TV's or had a discharge while cleaning their guns. They were all ignorant, careless fools. They were nothing like me. Nothing like that could ever happen to me. I'm responsible, and careful. In reality, I was really just hubris, prideful, and it led to complacency."
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That guy fired a round inside his car, narrowly missing his wife.

Here's another:

“I have this uncle who will turn 70 this month. He's been shooting, reloading & bullet casting for over 50 years, never had a ND. Until a few weeks ago that is. ... I was at his house the next day when he told me about it. He couldn't believe he left the gun loaded in the first place. Couldn't believe he didn't check the chamber in the second. 50 years of good habits and following the rules and it still caught up with him.”
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And another:

Marnie, my high-school sweetheart, and [my best] friend's sister, was killed by an AD. She was at home lying in bed reading a book. Her nine month old son was lying in the bed next to her. Her husband was in the living room watching TV.

Across the street in a different apartment complex, a young man was excitedly playing with his brand new AR14. With some foolish lack of thought, he chambered a round and for some reason even he couldn't explain, pulled the trigger.

The bullet went through his wall, across the street, through the wall of her bedroom and into Marnie's brain. It killed her instantly.

The baby wasn't hurt. Not directly anyway.

For a moment of stupidity, the young man spent time in jail and will never be allowed to own a gun again for the rest of his life. Marnie's husband and child both lost even more.
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The whole idea of the firearm safety rules is to prevent that from happening.

Throwing away two of the most basic four gunhandling rules leads to that.

Partly as a result of this project, I have become adamantly convinced that no one is capable of unloading the gun enough to dispense with the basic safety precautions of
  • controlling their muzzle direction whenever they handle the gun and
  • using a solid backstop whenever they touch the trigger.

At some point, every single one of us is capable of having the type of brain fart that leads to an unexpected loud noise.

There ain't no one perfect. Me most 'specially included.

As long as we habitually follow all of the basic gunhandling rules, including the 'redundant' ones that we don't really need after we (think we have) unloaded the gun, that unexpected loud noise won't result in a dead neighbor.

But habitually breaking those rules whenever we (think we) have unloaded the gun means that we have no safety net to keep people from dying from our utterly normal and entirely predictable brain farts.

pax

A history of success and positive outcomes does far more to erode our standards than a single negative outcome. ... Get away with doing something unsafe or substandard enough times and the unsafe and substandard become your standard. – Steve Whitehead
 
Oh! Joe Sixpack, here's one for you. Not a pellet or bb gun.

“Was shooting at the range, with my Marlin Model 60...Bolt locked back (normally meaning its empty)...Put it in the case, and loaded up to go home. Later that evening, I was cleaning it. Released the bolt once, then locked it back again. cleaned the barrel and as much on the chamber area as I can (patch on little finger. Closed the bolt again. Removed (tube) magazine follower, and put a light coat of oil on it. Dry fired it so I could put a drop of oil in the trigger mechanism. Pulled the slide back once again, so I could put a couple drops of oil in there. When I did this, I heard the sickening sound of a round dropping on the floor... I have NO idea where that sucker was hiding.”
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pax

Things that have never happened before happen all the time. -- Scott Sagan
 
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