Sub Guns For Hostage Rescue?

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Gusgus

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Seeing the picture of the INS agent pointing his MP5 at Elian Gonzales, and a local incident that happened this week got me thinking. What is this fascination with MP5s and other sub guns that SWAT teams seem to have? On Thursday, a SWAT team invaded a local High School on a practice exercise. Some of the members had MP5s, and they where sweeping KIDS and teachers with their muzzles, and yes, there where some fingers on triggers! Of course the news emphasized that the guns where unloaded (how many people have been shot with unloaded guns?). I am amazed that the same parents that would not allow their kids to play at a home that contained safely stored firearms, would not be the least bit concerned over police pointing sub guns at their kid's heads!!!!

Why would a MP5 be the weapon of choice for hostage rescue? Isn't a sub gun a military weapon of war designed to quickly kill many people? Is it really wise to be firing inaccurate, close range weapons of war in a school full of children?!!! Or does the survival of the police outweigh the innocents killed by such firepower? I know there are many hardworking officers here, that risk their life daily to "protect and serve", and these officers have my deepest respect. It just seems that in many areas of this country, the police have become an elite part of society, who's lives have become far more important than the citizens they are suppose to serve.
 
MP5s are not inaccurate weapons will trained users.

Also, in a dynamic situation, your eyes and muzzles are usually pointed in the same direction.

Reactions to the politics should not lead to unrealistic analyses of the situation.

Should they have stormed the place unarmed?

Given the decision was made, what should you do?

The news states that some reports of guns in the house and supposedly SEALS protecting the house lead to the tactics.
 
They carry MP5's because they CAN. It's the old 'Boys and their Toys' syndrome at work. The SWAT concept has really gotten out of hand when it takes buzz-gun armed goons with riot armor to take a kid into custody. Rambo Reno was lucky that there wasn't somebody with a bread knife in their hand standing in the kitchen...she'd be trying to explain the bullet riddled body of a 'slice terrorist'.

Is it to much to hope that our law enforcement exhibit MORE maturity and restraint than the person with whom they must deal?

rolleyes.gif


--slabsides

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If they take our guns, I intend to let my hair grow long and acquire the jawbone of an ass.
 
There were "reports of guns in the house"...reports from who? Let's see them.
 
While sub-machineguns are capable of full auto fire, most shots fired from them will be in either semi-automatic or in short bursts. Sustained full auto isn't really used all too much. A trained operator can be very accurate using either and if well practiced, even full auto. Further, because it is a shoulder weapon (not the hip stuff we see in WW II films or gangster movies), it is easier to hit accurately at a distance with a SMG than with a handgun. The latter is the reason why the Met at Heathrow has MP5s.
 
One reason MP5s are popular is that they fire from a closed bolt and are much more accurate in semiautomatic fire than weapons which fire from an open bplt.
 
It's something of a status symbol. Only elite troops (like Delta, SEAL teams) in the military carry submachineguns. In their role, they are perfect.

On the other hand, the fat nasty, muzzles sweeping the backs of other teammember's heads, only think they're elite. Laughably, they probably think they're Delta's equal.
 
This, I think, points to the question that others' have been posing for some time. At least here at TFL.

If you were ordered to carry out an action by your superiors, regardless of the order and the circumstances, would you carry it out.
Given the picture this morn of a particular INS agent with a sub-gun, in the face of the "youth they're there to protect", or capture, the question still remains.
Suppose one of the relatives, or friends, had reacted to this invasion with force, what do any of us here think would have happened. Of course, that didn't happen, so it's a mute point.

As for the choice of weapons used. I would love to have one of those too. Even better if someone else had to pay for it.

I wonder when the riots will start there. Considering that this is nothing but a political pi$$ing contest between several political parties. Not to mention it has served to shift focus from other more severe issue going on in this country. Like the IMF, WTO, NWO meetings that are being conducted here, with protest. Protests that are being handled extremely poorly by certain government agencies.

FWIW.

Best Regards,
Don


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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 
Should they have stormed the place unarmed?

They shouldn't have stormed the house at all. There were ex-SEALs guarding that house and weapons caches just like there was child abuse and drug manufacturing at Waco.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Photos taken by an Associated Press photographer inside
the home during the raid showed a helmeted agent wearing
goggles holding a rifle and reaching for Elian. Agents took
Elian out of Dalrymple's arms.[/quote]

That was a rifle he had, a civilian with a hi-point is armed with a machine gun but a turtle always carries a rifle.

gimme a break

dZ
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why would a MP5 be the weapon of choice for hostage rescue? [/quote]

It's the weapon of choice, because it is accurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Isn't a sub gun a military weapon of war designed to quickly kill many people?[/quote]

A sub-gun, as any other gun, is designed to initate and contain a rapid gas expansion, and to use that expansion to propel a malleable alloy pellet down a rapidly-vibrating tube, with an expected degree of repeateable accuracy. That is all any gun is designed to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it really wise to be firing inaccurate, close range weapons of war in a school full of children?!!![/quote]

There's a Colorado Sheriff getting sued because his officers allegedly didn't fire "weapons of war in a school full of children."

LawDog





[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
To all of you who are crying about the way the US government handled this issue: I say about damn time. The child was an illegal alien in our country--that is it plain and simple! The INS officials are constantly fighting this battle on the borders. Nobody cries or whimpers when illegal drug traffikers are busted or vanloads of illegal aliens are caught attempting to gain access to our country. How is this different!! What would you like for us to do next? Allow the kid to stay? Well then we would be hypocrites and have to open our borders to everyone. Where do we draw the line!? The kid belongs to his father...not the uncle! The majority of you whining have probably never served proudly in our countries armed forces. We have died protecting our borders so whiners like you can rant and rave with the freedom of speech you have not earned! We, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have fought to give you this! You are just taking it all for granted. If you don't like this WONDERFUL country we live in, then pack your bags and GET THE HELL OUT! Go to Cuba, Russia or any place at all outside our borders. In about a week you will be crying to be let back in! You can only take advantage of the things you have. Once they are gone, you are S.O.L.! In my opinion, it is more of a shame how long was spent negotiating in the first place. Elian was basically being held hostage. Should have happened sooner!
 
BMiracle: they're called political refugees and all of the adults that came over with the kid were granted asylum.

This kid was taken, with full knowledge of his father, on a risky raft ride for a better life. Only after the situation became politically exploitable by both side did the father seem to give a damn. If anyone thinks the father isn't, to a great extent, being controlled by Castro is deluding themselves.

You know, I don't remember ever returning any E Germans back to the USSR after escaping to the West. Do you think we should have?
 
I think a big point that America needs to understand from this is:
Just who all does have an MP5??
I would daily see federal agents training on our installation near DC. No problem with that. But every fat dude and his fat cashier girlfriend seemed to have an MP5. Postal inspectors, INS, Park Police and I forget who else.
Do we need all these semi-trained people packing MP5's??
The money alone spent buying all these "toys" for these guys is bad enough, besides the fact that they have them to now perform daycare.

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He who dares wins.
NRA Life Memeber
 
It is time we really re evaluate our society.

The only people I see in these posts that still prefer a police state are the police themselves.

I have worked with 2 Cubans over the years that will tell you about the wonderful revolution. There are no more patriotic Americans I have come across in my 40 years than the Cuban Americans.

What is happening with the militarization of law enforcement should alarm everyone. I dont know for sure what is going on,but this sure as hell is not the America I grew up in.

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Kevin
Junction Outdoor Supply
www.junctionoutdoorsupply@prodigybiz.com
 
We, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have fought to give you this!

Is this where we say thanks?

I'm a veteran and no way did I serve my country for this kind of Nazi Gestapo BS. My older relatives died fighting against this type of tyranny.

The child is not the point. The tactics are.



[This message has been edited by jeffelkins (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
Why are Federal Agents using automatic weapons around civilians? When I was in an MP Battalion in Presidio of SF in 1972 we were trained for riot control. Our M-16s were auto disabled. Have times changed so much that the government needs automatic weapons when dealing with civilians?
 
I believe based on news reports that the INS had intel that was a possibility of armed people in the house. Thats why the INS Border Patrol Tactical team went in armed for the dynamic entry. The tactics were sound but the image that the public see's is very damaging. Too bad this little boy had to go through all this and that it took so long.
frown.gif
 
Has the INS agent with the MP5 shown in the infamous photo been identified? It would be quite nice to find out his name, and perhaps find a mailing address so that we can all let him know how we feel about him.
 
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