Stupid Training

I suggest airsoft pistols (or Simunitions) and some realistic, force-on-force gunfight training to expose weaknesses.

Scenarios should include unstable footing (gravel, mud) and uneven footing (hillside, staircase).
 
If there's a logical reason to spend effort on keeping your feet lined up, that's fine, but "because it's like Horse Stance" is not it.
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Don't think that was ever suggested as a reason. What was suggested is that lining the feet up can be stable and balanced. But to your other point, sorry, but the horse stance can be used as a fighting position and can be used quite well, based on need. As deaf rightly points out, a deep horse stance is fundamental to a significant part of the Israeli technique, as well as in martial arts.
 
"As anyone that has been in shooting combat over the last 50 years or so knows you are supposed to have the off foot forward and bend the knees."

First off, let me be clear. I have been a LEO, but never fired a shot in anger, so I cannot and will not claim to be an expert in real combat shooting (as when the target is shooting at me).

But reading this thread, one thought occurs:

How in Hell do you get the bad guy to hold off shooting until you can assume those perfect stances the gurus teach on those nice ranges with no one shooting back? I can think of a hundred situations where you could die while getting your feet in the "proper" position. And the "time out" signal probably won't work.

Jim
 
How in Hell do you get the bad guy to hold off shooting until you can assume those perfect stances the gurus teach on those nice ranges with no one shooting back? I can think of a hundred situations where you could die while getting your feet in the "proper" position. And the "time out" signal probably won't work.
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Jim, you have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.

A solid shooting stance -- whichever your preferred stance, whether it has a name or not -- helps the beginning shooter learn the basic principles that absolutely must be mastered if the newcomer will ever reach his full potential as a shooter. As a beginner, you stand on the range in a static stance, and you learn to shoot quickly and accurately and reliably, gripping the gun the same way every time, presenting it smoothly and efficiently every time, pressing the trigger smoothly every time.

If your instructor is smart, that beginning stance (whatever name you choose to give it) will be one that can easily segue into more advanced techniques, including shooting while moving, shooting in low light, shooting moving targets, shooting one handed... the list goes on. All of those skills will build upon your original understanding of the fundamentals, and performing these advanced skills well really requires you to have internalized the basic principles the fundamentals are intended to teach.

What this means is that as you become more accomplished, the minor details that loomed so large in your early training become less significant -- NOT because the fundamentals are no longer important, but because by this point you will have internalized and mastered the principles that the basic fundamentals are designed to help you master.

So we study the minutae of the static stance, especially at the beginning, but nobody really believes that the static stance is the end game. Nobody thinks that or teaches it, not even the guys who are most insistent on mastering the basics. Rather, the end game is that you'll be able to do whatever you need to do with the gun, at whatever speed you need to do it, in any situation where you might reasonably find yourself needing a gun.

But you have to learn how to walk before you can run...

pax
 
In combat, most people run, whether they have learned to crawl or walk or not.

Jim's comments address two points. First, the minutae of the static stance apparently is the end of education for a lot of folks such that they believe the only way to fight is from a static stance and a particular one at that. When that fails or cannot be attained because the bad guy does not offer the generous opportunity of time, they are left with running, which they don't know how to do (using your analogy).

garryc's dept appears to be teaching one method that he particularly does not like, and he didn't give much indication of the dept. covering all the subtle nuances of various stances in learning to run nor did his belief in a singular method seem to indicate he had covered such territory either, hence Jim's comments.
 
DNS,

Understood. Too many people believe that learning the basics means they don't need to learn advanced techniques.

But for every person making that mistake, there are literally hundreds who think they'll somehow master advanced techniques without ever learning a single basic and without learning any fundamentals.

Maybe the second group of people is right. I dunno. I do know that an awful lot of little boys in my house grew up running around and pointing fake guns at each other (squirt guns, dart guns, Airsoft guns, you name it, they pointed it at each other). Somehow those kids, each and every one of them, still couldn't hit squat on a moving target when they grew up enough that I could take them to the range and put a real gun in their hands. We still had to start with the fundamentals.

There's a balance somewhere.

pax
 
garryc's dept appears to be teaching one method that he particularly does not like, and he didn't give much indication of the dept. covering all the subtle nuances of various stances in learning to run nor did his belief in a singular method seem to indicate he had covered such territory either, hence Jim's comments.
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I'll have you know that I have fired in anger, it was many years ago. Now the fact is if I was to design a course of training it would equal or exceed OPADA's police training. It would also take weeks. As it stands, we have one 8hr course in a year. Sad ain't it.

The fact is that they teach one technique, they should teach it as it was designed. And no, a static firing line is not a good teacher for combat. To tell someone the difference in cover and concealment and then tell them to use it, without drilling it, is a waste.

The problem is that our department is saturated with social workers that have assumed control of custody issues. They neither know or care to know about this subject. This is why we still carry M10's and M64's that are in dismal repair overall. They declined issuing autos even when S+W offered them a sweet deal. They also decline to send the current revolvers to S+W for inspection and rebuild. It's just not worth the money to them.

As far as my abilities, I'll hold my own against anyone. I do train, and I do shoot combat competition. Hopefully that competition is as close to the real thing as I ever get to again.

I guess I'll just suck it up. I can shoot in any position, including this position that is more useful for taking a dump than shooting . I guess when I go on a transport I will simply have to keep in my mind the fact that, with few exceptions, no one competent has my back. That's just life. Hey, at least I have someone there storing extra ammo for me because we don't teach stress fire and they will likely freeze.

As for those on this thread who thought to be condescending or insulting, you can kiss my.........boot.
 
It would also take weeks. As it stands, we have one 8hr course in a year. Sad ain't it. ....
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garryc ~

That really sucks. It's not an unusual situation, but it really sucks.

Some departments (I'm thinking of one specific one down the road from me) have a department culture where learning how to shoot is "bad" in some poorly-defined way -- as if learning how to shoot means you're a bloodthirsty neanderthal with a penchant for violence. They sure don't want any of their guys to show any enthusiasm for learning to shoot, or be into firearms in any significant way.

Others (I'm thinking of a different department down the road in the other direction) have a culture that's exactly the opposite. With a good and enthusiastic trainer, it's surprising how far the budget can be stretched and how much more willing the student/cops are to learn what needs to be learned. Someone who comes out of a healthy department culture like that is more likely to do what you're doing, and get the training whether forced to do so or not.

Budgets are tight everywhere, and budgeting both the time and the money for ordinary cops to learn to shoot well just isn't an easy sell at the best of times. After all, you use your wits, your car keys, your baton, your verbal judo, your handcuffs, your radio ... everything else that goes with the job ... a million times more often than you'll ever need that gun. Lotsa guys go through an entire career without ever firing a shot away from the range. So what's the big deal? That's the reasoning.

Sometimes it's just hard to convince a bean counter that a human life -- YOURS! -- is more important than a pile of beans.

(No suggested solutions. Just admiring the problem.)

pax
 
After all, you use your wits, your car keys, your baton, your verbal judo, your handcuffs, your radio ... everything else that goes with the job ... a million times more often than you'll ever need that gun.
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The thing is that our social workers don't value that training either. You see, I've been on the job for 16 years, before the social workers took over, so I'm old school. I try to impart the things I know to these young officers but they neither respect or value experience.

For example, I used to work our sallyport during off hours when we had to send out a transport. More times than I can count they would bring an inmate for transport that is not properly restrained. By God, when an inmate leaves my house his steel will be on book right! I'd make them fix it or do it myself. They usually just called me some colorful name.

Now let me say this, which will anger some. Many many times I've seen cops come into the institution after doing 20 years on the street. Many times I've seen them quit because they can't handle being locked up alone, and unarmed, with 140 inmates. I don't think it's cowardness as much as it's the realization that they have no real control of their environment. Any officer who thinks he has more control of a lock than the inmates allow him to have, or want him to have, is fooling himself. Usually the inmates want you to have that control, even though they resist it, because they don't want to live in total chaos anymore than you do.
 
garryc

Lets spend a minute here and have a little discussion about training. I try not to get involved with training issues on this forum, there seem to be so many training GODs here and I have sworn off the training belt, being an old dog, and with all the new tricks about!

What concerns me is the almost RELIGIOUS attitude when Peace officers standards and training and departmental firearms training is discussed. Training is what it is, and its effectiveness is determined by the quality/diligence of the instructors and the commitment of the brass. I have seen very GOOD firearms training and very BAD firearms training coming from LE departments.

The good news for you Gary, is that once you have your qualifier in hand, you can load up with your street ammo and RETURN to what you think works!!!!

Here are my thoughts, though they are from the old days of revolvers in law enforcement they still may have some gravity.

1st - There are no correct combat stances with pistols on the street.
In the half dozen scrapes I was in everybody used the stance that allowed them to shoot. One handed, laying in the gutter, sprawled out behind a car tire, half knelling half standing against a dumpster, and even bolt upright shooting on the advance. The point is that none of those positions would have been accepted in our PPC style of qualifications for my agency.

2nd - As I have said in previous posts and others have said before me firing positions should NEVER be mutually exclusive things. If that is being told to you remember point #1. Learn and train with them all, decisively move to what will work best, AND WIN.

3rd - A personal note, I was never happy training to a minimum standard, I was willing to spend my own $$ to get more. I can not honestly say the Gunsite, Yavapai, International Training Consultants, or the Wild Bunch helped me survive on the street. They did open my eyes to other way to look at defensive firearms, I brought that back to my guys. I was alway in trouble with this attitude, I was very respectful to the brass, but I was very forthright about my thoughts.

Good luck in you endeavor sir.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Scatter, I'm getting into the mind set now that I will just ride out the next 14 years. Careing about this department is simply a waste of time. I need to decide on my priorities in this situation.

1st, I survive.

2nd, my partner survives

Everything else is just dribble. Before my department looks at custody conserns another Lucasville riot will have to happen, of course it won't be them getting raped and killed.
The kicker is, other than these irritations, I like being a C/O.
 
garryc

It would have been difficult for me to do your job! I spent a little time interacting with C/O's at one of our prisons. I could never get use to the constant scrunity by con's in the yard looking for any chink in your armor.

The GOOD news is that prison systems do change, and on occasion they get better.

My best to you, an please be safe

Bob
 
Making a stable shooting platform is a must for pinpoint precision not for achieving good combat hits.

I'm confident that dropping into a deep "horse" stance to engage a bad guy in the process of trying to kill me is not going to help me as much as getting lead into them ASAP from whatever angle/stance/hand I'm holding the gun in at the time. Better yet is for me to get lead into them while I move.
 
Okay garryc, you have complained to us quite a bit about your department. Since you know so well what is wrong, what are YOU doing about it?

How many times have you and your partner gone to the range to work on drills together? How many times have you taken other officers to the range to work on drills?

I ask this because you have apparently admitted total defeat with dealing with the department. Since your #1 and #2 priorities are survival of you and your partner, what are you doing to expand your limited knowledge and training?

From the sounds of it, I get more training than y'all do and I am not in a department.
 
Do you guys ever wonder why the U.S. miliary teaches 'stances' for rifle shooting? Prone, kneeling, etc... Yes the 'stance' may not be textbook perfect, and in facy may be improvised to a huge degree, but the military does know a thing or two about combat.
 
How many times have you and your partner gone to the range to work on drills together?
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Actually I don't have "A" partner, It's who ever they assign on that day.

How many times have you taken other officers to the range to work on drills?
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With the exception of a few guys, not often. Just like in most police forces, most people aren't shooters. They only go when told to and only learn what they are told to. Stricktly minimal.


I ask this because you have apparently admitted total defeat with dealing with the department.
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Admittedly, I lack the political finesse to effect change in a huge bureaucracy. I'm more a bull in the china shop kind of personality. It's been said that I'm kind of a rigid thinker, that doesn't get you far in a political organization. But it does work well with inmates, you're consistent.


Since your #1 and #2 priorities are survival of you and your partner, what are you doing to expand your limited knowledge and training?
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MY training is not limited as you seem to imply, Sir. I train hard and varied the course. Doing the same stuff the same way is boring. I find rough spots and polish them. Like shooting multiple targets from under a car, behind its tire, that was a tough one for me to get down for some reason. I shot that position with hundreds of rounds until it was smooth.
 
Prison Officers

Correction Officers do not carry at work, right? so as it is still not right, but training is just a waste of time and money according to the bosses.

I could give you a 100 round training program that would be fun, and teach your group what they need to know to feel comfortable with their weapons in holsters, re escort duty for instance.

The minute a riot situation pops up, Shot guns and Rifles become the hand held weapons? Correct me if I am wrong Garryc
 
Correction Officers do not carry at work, right?
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We do not carry inside the wire. Our armed positions are perimeters, security patrol and transports. If I had to figure the one who is most likely to face an armed foe it would be security patrol. That is a patrol officer on the roads and grounds outside the institution. Checking stopped vehicles and such. Second would be transports to hospitals, and believe it or not you are almost as likely to be protecting the inmate from a victim than preventing an escape.

I could give you a 100 round training program that would be fun, and teach your group what they need to know to feel comfortable with their weapons in holsters, re escort duty for instance.
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That would be great. But really it would only be effective if we shot quarterly rather than once a year. We have 40hrs a year training, it would be nice to have two days firearms and two UASD split by 6 months. That would leave one day for the PC bullcrap.

The minute a riot situation pops up, Shot guns and Rifles become the hand held weapons? Correct me if I am wrong Garryc
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You'd be hard pressed to ever see weapons inside the wire. If the did they would be used by our SRT or TRT or STAR teams. I used to be on those teams, but at 49 I'm a little past that.
 
Ohio Law says this:


109.801 Annual firearms requalification program.
(A)(1) Each year, any of the following persons who are authorized to carry firearms in the course of their official duties shall complete successfully a firearms requalification program approved by the executive director of the Ohio peace officer training commission in accordance with rules adopted by the attorney general pursuant to section 109.743 of the Revised Code: any peace officer, sheriff, chief of police of an organized police department of a municipal corporation or township, chief of police of a township police district police force, superintendent of the state highway patrol, state highway patrol trooper, or chief of police of a university or college police department ; any parole or probation officer who carries a firearm in the course of official duties; the house of representatives sergeant at arms if the house of representatives sergeant at arms has arrest authority pursuant to division (E)(1) of section 101.311 of the Revised Code; any assistant house of representatives sergeant at arms; or any employee of the department of youth services who is designated pursuant to division (A)(2) of section 5139.53 of the Revised Code as being authorized to carry a firearm while on duty as described in that division.

(2) No person listed in division (A)(1) of this section shall carry a firearm during the course of official duties if the person does not comply with division (A)(1) of this section.

(B) The hours that a sheriff spends attending a firearms requalification program required by division (A) of this section are in addition to the sixteen hours of continuing education that are required by division (E) of section 311.01 of the Revised Code.

(C) As used in this section, “firearm” has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.

Effective Date: 03-19-2003; 09-16-2004; 03-14-2007

And this:

109.743 Administrative rules.
The attorney general shall adopt, in accordance with Chapter 119. of the Revised Code or pursuant to section 109.74 of the Revised Code, rules governing firearms requalification programs that are required by section 109.801 of the Revised Code. At a minimum, the rules shall prohibit a firearms requalification program from being used to fulfill the requirements of section 109.801 of the Revised Code until after the program is approved by the executive director of the Ohio peace officer training commission pursuant to section 109.75 of the Revised Code.


So I'm wondering if OPADA is aware of this alteration of the program. Maybe I'll just get that can of gas back out and fire this issue up. A little complaint to OPADA might get some attention.
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Garry I have to ask you a question about this for me to understand your concern. I am an OPOTC firearms instructor. I am allowed to teach whatever I want. Only when it come to requalifications, am I to follow the OPOTC requalification program because it's a test that officers are required to do once a year. This requalifiction program can be the OPOTC program or a course that an instructor would design and then approved by OPOTC.

With what I said above, are you still shooting the 7 stage OPOTC requalification? Or is your Instructor just teaching you a new technique for shooting? I am curious to know, and if he is making you shoot an unapproved course of fire, you should contact OPOTC because you and other officers that would have shot would not be qualified on your weapon. But from your original post, it sounds like your instructor is trying to teach you a shooting stance, and if that's the case, there is nothing wrong with that. Did you ask the instructor about this and give your input to him/her? Please don't take my post out of context, I just want to understand your issue, wether it was just a new technique, or new course of fire.

adam
 
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