Student Incident

Tom Givens

New member
Student Incident

One of our students recently reported an incident he was involved in, with several good teaching points. James has taken a number of courses from Rangemaster, including advanced classes with Simunitions role play, which prepared him well for this encounter.

James and his sister were walking his dog in James’ neighborhood, a nice middle class area where his parents also live nearby. It was early in the evening, and nothing indicated anything other than a normal evening stroll.

A black sedan with tinted windows passed by James and his sister and went on by. James noted the vehicle, and watched it as it went well past them down the street to their rear. Well down the street it turned around and headed back: again, this was noticed by James. As the vehicle pulled along side them and slowed to a stop, the passenger window came down and an arm appeared through the window, holding a handgun. James had discussed this sort of incident with his sister previously, and she immediately began moving away from the car. James quickly moved in another direction, toward the right rear of the suspect vehicle. This made it very difficult for the passenger to direct the handgun toward James. As he moved, James reached for the Kahr handgun he had concealed on his person. The vehicle sped off, with no shots fired and no one injured, which is the way we like these things to end.

Lessons:
1. When you least expect it, you’re elected! James was in a “safe” location, a “good neighborhood” within sight of his own home. He was still armed, and more importantly, still alert and aware.
2. Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance! James had considered this sort of incident PRIOR to its occurrence, and he had discussed it with someone likely to be with him if it happened. Both he and his sister had a pre-planned response in mind. This is critical, as it removes confusion and hesitation, your worst enemies.
3. An aggressive response is your best defense. When James moved off line and went for his pistol, that was all the bad guys needed to convince them to leave at once. Had James just stood there, he may have been shot, or the BG’s may have exited the vehicle and robbed/raped/assaulted what they saw as helpless victims.

Be alert and aware of your environment, regardless of time of day or the part of town you’re in. Be armed. Have a plan to deal with violence. Remember, violent crime only happens to someone else. To every other person on the planet, YOU are someone else.

Tom Givens
www.rangemaster.com
 
StudentIncident

The Young Man and his Sister are to be commended on their maneuvers with the BG. I am glad that they made it unharmed and I am also glad that he didn't have to kill the BG at his young age. Perhaps a grownup will get a shot at the perp and end his cruising, hopefully!

It is so sad that Citizens have to live in the same area and world with such a worthless group of scumbags.
 
I am not doubting this event at all. It sounds very strange to me though. I know that random acts of violence happen, however, this case sounds crazy. A black sedan with tinted windows drives by, in a middle class neighborhood...just to shoot someone taking a walk? Was there other incidences of this behaviour in that neck of the woods? Being that it may have been an isolated case...makes it sound even stranger. If someone is crazy enough to just drive around in decent neighborhoods to shoot people taking walks...they surely are crazy enough to continue this behaviour until they actually do, or they have already done so and are confident in success. Perhaps this young man has not told the whole story, like he may have pissed someone off or may have had a history with the driver/BG. In the past, I have lived in an area known to have gang/drug activity...never, Never was there any type of this crazy behaviour, unless it was a retaliation or rival gang activity. Just my thoughts.
 
Topthis: with all due respect, this happens more than you know, in areas you wouldn't ever expect it.
Additionally, it doesn't really matter if he did piss someone off, gang/drug activity, whatever. The fact is, it happened, and he was prepared for it mentally and physically. Believing that you're in a nice neighborhood and this will never happen because it has never happened to you puts you in condition white.
 
Hello Mr. G. from Jim and Denise. We're about overdue for a little range time! See you guys soon and hope all is well.

U.F.O. (Jim)
 
Just curious. Did the BG try to mug him, you know say give me your wallet or something along those lines. Or was it just completely random. Just goes to show though you can never be overly cautious.
 
I'd sooner believe in scientology.
PythonGuy, you have proven repeatedly by your posts that you don't believe in armed self-defense. Some of us do. If you don't, lock away your unloaded guns until the next time you go to the range, but stop telling us that things did not happen to us or that we were wrong for defending ourselves from external threats. The keyboard diarrhea you suffer from every time you enter T&T and read about an armed citizen foiling the plans of a criminal grows tiresome. :mad:
 
Mr. Givens has earned and deserves respect folks!!

You want to discuss something else not in original post - start your own thread.

Thank you Mr. Givens for sharing and reminding us all.

One would be wise to read again the original post and the lessons.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam
 
I don't doubt this at all. In fact I have heard of this sort of thing where gang members drive out to the subs to initiate a new member by having them do a driveby on some random person they see. Ususlly outside larger cities tough.
 
Likelihood of this Incident Happening

My son is a serving police officer with ten years experience. He will be happy to sit down and recount such "unlikely" and "implausible" incidents as:

- the circumstances of a variety of gang-induction rituals requiring that the proposed new member murder someone - sometimes a member of a different cultural or racial group, sometimes just anyone - as a requisite for admission;

- the circumstances of an "amped" person who "just felt like popping somebody" as an expression of joie d'vivre, rage, resentment, whatever, who then shot and killed a total stranger.

These are not urban legends expressing some diffuse racial or cultural tension afloat in our society. These are incidents on the books, and we don't yet have a name for what they are. That they are frequently, ah, substance-related, always sociopathological and monstrous is obvious. That they are all too real, and happen every day is undeniable. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding himself.

I hate the idea of having to obtain a CC permit just to leave the safety of my own house with some expectation of coming back to it. Did I say "leave my own house"? Ooops - there was a home invasion two houses up the street five years ago wherein misguided youths with shotguns terrorized, duct-taped, and beat members of three generations of one family before leaving. Less than one year ago my great Aunt and her husband - both in their eighties -were pistol-whipped in their home in the early afternoon by a wandering meth head.

Think the value and "niceness" of your neighborhood, or that it had "never" happened there before" makes you immune or the incident to hand implausible? Think again, and when Topthis says that the whole thing just sounds "crazy" and doesn't seem to make any sense, he's quite correct: it IS crazy. "Craziness" is a defining and necessary component. And it does happen. It is just a damnable shame that you can't go or be anywhere in our country with any expectation of safety.
 
Well, I for one find the story so obviously contrived, it's nothing short of absurd.. I would ask the poster if there was a police report; did "James" or his "sister "use a cell phone to call 911? Did "James" or his "sister" get a license number? There are people who thrive on fear and paranoia and I suspect the poster is one.
 
These days there is no such thing as a safe neighborhood or safe anywhere..

I can easily beleive it happened. The bad Guys are looking for sheep. By his actions and showing the BGs he was ready they headed for easier prey. If I am leaving the houe and see a strange person in the neighborhood or a car idling by the side of the road, I sometimes make another pass by the house.
If the BG sees that you are aware..they will be going to greener pastures...to find a sheep herd.

if I were a BG I would see if the state had a database of CCW by zip code and def not go to one where a high % of folks had them.

You get a CCW because you as a person know that statistical abberations occur...as in the case above.

BTW I am a liberal who beleives in self defense and the 2nd Amendment. :D
 
Tom's story reminds us of "The Rule of The Seven P's"
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. With a plan in mind and executed without any quibbling no one was hurt and no shots were fired.

Anyone familiar with sniper techniques can guess how the BGs might learn from this lesson and surprise their next victim.

Lest people think that no one drives around and randomly shoots people, do a Google search (for you young'uns) on "Zodiac Killer" and "San Francisco".
 
while it's strange, i wouldn't doubt it - why would you come make up a story on TFL? to convince the membership that they should own guns and train with them? i dunno, sounds like a tough sell to me :rolleyes:
 
"Ususlly outside larger cities tough." Memphis is not what I would call a one horse town.

Yeah, I can believe this. People do all kinds of stupid things. The handgun could have been an airpistol type and the intention was to scare someone and enjoy the reaction. I have seen punks riding around pelting pedestrians with paintballs. Punks sometimes drive along beside bicyclists and giving them a shove, just to see them wipe out. People ride in the back of pickups and throw eggs at pedestrians. Most of the time it is teenagers and young adults acting stupid.
 
Creibility of Posters

I had to join the Forum to make a comment. I know the author of the original post. Since he is using his real name, anyone with internet savvy can check on him themselves. For those of you who don't know, this is one dead serious guy. He wouldn't post something he didn't think was serious. If he thinks there is a lesson in there, then I'm going to study it.

That's what I think of Tom's credibility. Here's to you posters who are making light of this. Myself, I've lived in Dallas and Atlanta since 1986, and I've seen the big city. Oh, for a year and a half in there, I lived in a tough neihborhood in Montgomery AL and now I'm with Uncle supporting the War on Terror. Something a lot like this happened recently in Dallas -- according to the newpaper. A restaurant owner in an upscale neighborhood was walking down the sidewalk with his wife, when someone pulled the same stunt, but with different results: they shot her to death. This is not an unusual happening in the big city, folks. Anyone who thinks this is far-fetched or overblown, well, all I can say is, good luck.
 
I have met Mr. Givens at the NTI twice. I believe what he says. I have heard him recant similar instances to a group containing some of the best known trainers in the country.

I also find it hard to believe that folks don't believe that things like this happen. Those responses esp. with the nasty tone are simply trolls taking advantage of some fake name.

Also, I'm not a conservative but very pro gun and self-defense.

The anecdote gives us a chance to learn. Unless you are unable. :mad:
 
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