Stuck at low velo for .308

try RL-15 ( If you can find any ). start with about 39 gns and work up from there.
Also try CCI-BR primers, 2.80 for length is good. My pet 308 load is 43.2 RL-15 and 175 smk,s. Seems like all 308's love RL-15.
 
Note the fact that the 7.62 NATO round was developed around a 1:12 twist barrel as that twist for the 2800 fps muzzle velocity of the 150-gr. (or thereabouts) spun it at the ideal rpm rate for optimum stabilization.

Even Harry Pope, the famous barrel maker knew back in the early 1900's that the new 172-gr. machine gun bullet shot most accurate from a .30-06 with a 1:12 twist and he made barrels for the US Palma Team that way. Back then, the velocity of that bullet in the .30-06 was about what it is today from the M118 match round.

And the 172-gr match bullets from the M118 7.62 match ammo also stabilized quite well from the M14's 1:12 twist. So did Sierra 180 and 190 HPMK's from both the 22 inch M14 barrels and 24 inch M1 barrels with handloaded 7.62 NATO ammo. Many a match was won and records set with such stuff.

Winchester's first Model 70's in .308 Win. had 1:12 twist barrels. Their 200-gr. hunting bullets stabilized well in that twist. Many a 200-gr. Western match bullet was shot in their 1:12 twist match barrels very accurate through 1000 yards.
 
Wow, thanks for all the info!

I don't think I mentioned it originally but my barrel is the 26" medium weight varmint model. According to Remington it was produced in 2010.

At the risk of making this a reloading thread: RL-15 is something that I always look for when I get to Cabela's or any other supplier but so far I haven't had any luck. I have tried BR2 primers (800 rounds so far) but get pretty identical results with WLR and CCI 200 at half the price and better availability.

I just found some GMM 175s at Midway's site so I ordered a box. Hopefully I will get them before my weekly trip to the range.

As far as the stabilization of the heavier bullets goes, I have never seen an oblong hole in any target I have shot out to 300yds.
 
You have Varget, I'd start there.

Appropriate powders for maximum accuracy are: Varget, H4895, IMR4064, Reloader15. As far as I can tell they are temp stable in that order as well, with Re15 the least temp stable.

Jimro
 
Start with Varget and play with OAL? As this is a range gun I never use the magazine so I am not worried about the rounds fitting. I can start seating the bullets farther out as their lengths allow. I have heard that seating into the lands can cause pressure spikes. Has anyone seen evidence of that?
 
Yes seating into the lands will increase pressure.

If your current load shoots tight, do an "Optimal Charge Weight" load workup to the max charge as listed by Hodgdon.

Jimro
 
Ha! This reminds me of all the problems I had with my Remington 700 SPS before I had it rebarreled and chambered to .260 Remington. If I seated out for accuracy the rounds wouldn't fit the magazine. If I seated for magazine fit, accuracy suffered (Federal 168 gr. GMM shot great though). Here are a couple of loads I used that shot well. If you try seating out you'll have to measure your own rifle.

Seated normally.

Bullet: Sierra 168 gr. HPBT MatchKing
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Federal
LOAL: 2.800 (2.230 base to ogive with Stoney Point)
Avg. Velocity: 2649 fps
Spread: 41.68 fps
Std Dev: 13.07

Bullet: Sierra 175 gr. HPBT MatchKing
Powder: IMR-4064 42.5 grs
Primer: Federal 210M
Case: Federal
LOAL: 2.800 (2.230 base to ogive with Stoney Point)
Avg. Velocity: 2578 fps
Spread: 29.70 fps
Std Dev: 10.72

Seated out.

Bullet: Hornady 168 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.5 grs.
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Winchester
LOAL: 2.925 (2.325 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Rounds: 25
Velocity: 2527.28 fps.
Comments: Jam length is 2.340 Base to Ogive with this bullet, this seating depth used for 0.015 bullet jump
 
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I wasn't going to post these because I didn't do any chronograph work - but they were all safe loads in my long throated Model 700 (accurate too). YOU'VE GOT TO MEASURE YOUR OWN RIFLE AND WORK UP YOUR POWDER CHARGE! Max loaded length to fit the magazine is about 2.829 so these all have to be single loaded.

Bullet: Hornady 168 gr. A-Max
Powder: Alliant Reloader 15 43.5 grs.
Primer: Federal 210
Case: Remington
LOAL: 2.945 (2.322 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: Jam length is 2.340 Base to Ogive with this bullet. This seating depth used for 0.018 bullet jump

Bullet: Berger 168 gr. HPBT Match
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 44.0 grs
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.937 (2.325 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: Jam length is 2.343 Base to Ogive with this bullet. This seating depth used for 0.018 bullet jump

Bullet: Nosler 168 gr. Ballistic Tip
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 44.0 grs
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 3.042 (2.395 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: Jam length is 2.413 Base to Ogive with this bullet. This seating depth used for 0.018 bullet jump

Bullet: Nosler 175 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.0 grs
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.960 (2.380 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: Jam length is 2.398 Base to Ogive with this bullet. This seating depth used for 0.018 bullet jump

Bullet: Nosler 175 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.5 grs
Primer: Federal 210
Case: Winchester
LOAL: 2.945 (2.368 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: Jam length is 2.398 Base to Ogive with this bullet. This seating depth used for 0.030 bullet jump
 
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I have read a couple of places on the web that each action/barrel combo has a certain harmonic produced by the shockwave travelling up and down the barrel which, when determined through trial and error, will result in the most repeatable groups. Most of these articles primarily are aimed at whether one type of fluting is better than another but the science behind them seems generally applicable.

For the most part I have figured out the max safe load for my rifle. Using the Hogden guide I have learned for the 175s, 168s, and 150s that their max loads are a good stopping point using my brass in my rifle.

My question is more: "Is it likely my action/barrel combo is limited to low velocity rounds due to the whip frequency or can I modify the seating depth/brass hardness/primer type to significantly change the frequency and therefore use a heavier charge to increase accuracy at longer range?"
 
You *should* be able to pushbutton faster and be accurate.. You big question is, are you still using the standard stock? If so, then you are limiting yourself.
 
I have read a couple of places on the web that each action/barrel combo has a certain harmonic produced by the shockwave travelling up and down the barrel which, when determined through trial and error, will result in the most repeatable groups. Most of these articles primarily are aimed at whether one type of fluting is better than another but the science behind them seems generally applicable.

For the most part I have figured out the max safe load for my rifle. Using the Hogden guide I have learned for the 175s, 168s, and 150s that their max loads are a good stopping point using my brass in my rifle.

My question is more: "Is it likely my action/barrel combo is limited to low velocity rounds due to the whip frequency or can I modify the seating depth/brass hardness/primer type to significantly change the frequency and therefore use a heavier charge to increase accuracy at longer range?"
Click to expand...

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Go read what Dan Newberry wrote, and do a load workup thusly.

Jimro
 
Here's a hunting load I use in my Savage 10FLP .308 Winchester. The throat isn't as long as the the one that I had on my 700. The Savage magazine will feed longer ammunition than the Remington so the long throat was an advantage.

I guess I got a little carried away... just trying to help!

Bullet: Nosler 168 gr. Ballistic Silvertip
Powder: Alliant Reloader 15 46.0 grs
Primer: Federal 210
Case: Winchester
LOAL: 2.895 (2.263 Base to Ogive)
Average Velocity: 2663.36 fps
Extreme Spread: 4.69
Standard Deviation: 2.64
Comments: Seated for magazine function, 0.095 bullet jump to lands

5shots100yards.jpg
 
+1 On the stock. I never fired a single round through my 700 with the factory tupperware stock - pure junk!

H-S Precision Varmint, much better.

260Remington.jpg
 
@Jimro - That looks like what I have been searching for. Thanks, I love a good process! :D

@pbcaster - Never even saw the original Tupperware! The guy I bought it from was kind enough to add a $300 HS Precision, fire 200 rds through it, and then sell it to me for original cost. That is a nice group for a hunting round!
 
I haven't read everyones post but I can tell you if your bullet is stable velocity has nothing to do with accuracy. If your not getting oblong holes your bullet is stable so I'm going to have to blame the shooter in this case. Moving out beyond 100 yards the first time don't expect groups to stay the same because shooter problems get magnified. 100 yards is a lot more fogiving than 200 and 300 yards as I've learned over the years.

I'm now doing my load development for the longest range I have which is 300 yards off the bench, if I go off the bi-pod I'll shoot out to 600. I now only use 100 yards to get on paper and chronograph my loads. I kind of combine the audette ladder and OCW into a modified ladder test. I also seat my bullets at the range when possible, as it saves me from having to pull bullets later.

When I first shoot I shoot 10 rounds of different powder charges at my target at 300 yards. I look for the least amount of vertical dispersion and don't pay attention to the horizontal. Once you find the powder charges with the least amount of vertical dispersion then you've found the accuracy node. I then use those charges to finish load development. This is where I tweat seating depth from magazine length to dial the load in a little better.

A few other things I do different these days with my reloading practices. I decapp in a seperate setp from resizing. I remove the decapping rod and ball from all of my sizing dies. This helps to keep the case straighter, and I only use the expander ball if the case mouth is deformed. On my varmint/target rifle I only neck size as well until the shoulder needs to be bumped back. I run everything over the Hornady concentricity gage as well and straighten any defects in my ammunition and this helps a lot as well.
 
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To the OP: what are your results with factory loads? Have you run only handloadings through this rifle? The best thing I can recommend is to eliminate the handloads from the list of variables by testing it with factory loads.
 
I'm dumb for questioning the stock.... I remember reading in your OP that you had a good one with it! My forgetfulness :banghead:

Just consider yourself lucky that you never had to deal with that piece of junk factory stock ;) I replaced mine with a B&C Medalist and have been loving it.
 
@csmsss - I really didn't do much with factory. To try it out first I bought some Magtech, Remington, and Winchester. Once I got the brass I started handloading and haven't tried anything match grade from the factory yet.

Frankly I reload .45ACP out of economy and started out doing the same with .308. (the wife's first question when I mentioned I wanted a CFR was "How much does ammo for that cost?" not "How much does the gun cost?" The girl knows the right questions to ask.)

Now I am looking to wring every bit of accuracy out of my gun and so here I am. I did order some GMM today so I will see what those look like on paper. If they work then I probably need to go back to the reloading bench with Mr. Newberry's process. (probably should anyway)
 
Yes, seating bullets out a ways can cause pressure increases. But reducing the powder charge also reduces pressure. Load accordingly.

For what it's worth, IMR4064 has the best track record for accuracy with the .308 Win. and bullets from 168 to 190 grains. Lighter bullets do best with IMR 4895 and Varget as evidenced their long accuracy record with 155's. 200 grain through 250 grain bullets have shot most accurate with IMR4350.

I would think any of the VV extruded powders at the same speeds as these would produce the same results.

Regarding that OCW theory, I think its a marketing ploy based on assumptions and not facts. First off, it's not the 16,000 feet per second sound waves move back and forth that's claimed to cause problems with the bore/groove diameter at the muzzle changing. At the speed that shock wave goes back and forth in the barrel, there'll be several of them at the muzzle before the bullet exits. And nobody has ever proved by any tool or method that the bullet leaves at any particular bore/groove diameter at the muzzle. Besides, there's not given starting point for that shock wave; if it stars somewhere in the middle of the case, there'll be two of them. One starting out going forward, the other starting out going backwards. Now there's twice as many obturations of the muzzle while the bullet's in the barrel.

But it has been proved that bullets exit during the barrel's whip cycle such that with different muzzle velocities they exit at different angles. The frequency the muzzle axis whips at is about 4 times the resonant frequency of the barreled action itself. Best accuracy tend to happen when bullets leave when the muzzle axis is rising and is almost at its peak.

Having worn out a few match barrel in Garands and the rifling got worn away from cleaning rods rubbing there, no degradation of accuracy happened as the copper wash no longer got deposited all the way to the muzzle but stopped 3/4 inch back from it. The bore/groove diameters did enlarge a tiny bit as proved by air gauges. But accuracy stayed the same.
 
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