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Strobe me, bro!
- Thread starter Model12Win
- Start date
I would like to point out we are discussing a home defense gun. By definition its going to be used in your own home.
You know your home and its layout better than any intruder. You know the best spots for staying concealed. You also have the opportunity to use motion switches (they go in place of standard wall mounts) to automatically illuminate the weakest points of your home. Anyone entering my house is bathed in light in the entrance rooms by these while I am standing in shadows. The other great thing is my kids don't forget to shut the light off on the way out the door.
If I chose to use a flashlight I am going to hold it away from my body with my arm across my body (once upon a time how they trained police). Anyone shooting at said light will be shooting off to my right. Meanwhile that arm will still act as a brace for my gun hand. If I find the light creates me a problem it is easily discarded without discarding my gun.
Further if I am not certain of the situation but armed I am not pointing my firearm at anyone I have not identified or anything else for that matter. Remember that rule about "never point a gun at something you do not intend to destroy" thing. It doesn't just go away because there is a light there. There is also an argument made by many who have argued against external safeties of keeping the gun as simple as possible - adding more controls for a light does not do this.
I am sure there are situations where a weapon mounted light works better. I do not believe that it is in your own house. Others may have differing opinions and they are very welcome to them.
You know your home and its layout better than any intruder. You know the best spots for staying concealed. You also have the opportunity to use motion switches (they go in place of standard wall mounts) to automatically illuminate the weakest points of your home. Anyone entering my house is bathed in light in the entrance rooms by these while I am standing in shadows. The other great thing is my kids don't forget to shut the light off on the way out the door.
If I chose to use a flashlight I am going to hold it away from my body with my arm across my body (once upon a time how they trained police). Anyone shooting at said light will be shooting off to my right. Meanwhile that arm will still act as a brace for my gun hand. If I find the light creates me a problem it is easily discarded without discarding my gun.
Further if I am not certain of the situation but armed I am not pointing my firearm at anyone I have not identified or anything else for that matter. Remember that rule about "never point a gun at something you do not intend to destroy" thing. It doesn't just go away because there is a light there. There is also an argument made by many who have argued against external safeties of keeping the gun as simple as possible - adding more controls for a light does not do this.
I am sure there are situations where a weapon mounted light works better. I do not believe that it is in your own house. Others may have differing opinions and they are very welcome to them.
It's effective to the extent that you're concealed behind a wall of light, but the downside is that it isn't hard to figure out where you are. Light doesn't bother my eyes and strobes don't effect me that much. I've noticed that they don't seem to affect others much either.
I like weapon lights but I don't see any need for a strobe feature.
I like weapon lights but I don't see any need for a strobe feature.
Model12Win wrote:
What is the point of the strobe light?
The idea is that when the strobe flashes it illuminates your target so that you can get off an aimed shot while at the same time the flash destroys your target's night vision and disorients him so that he doesn't know where to shoot.
The reality doesn't match up to the theory.
The flash of white light affects both you and the attacker's visual acuity to about the same degree. The disorientation that comes from seeing and then not seeing is not limited to your attacker. The attacker is in darkness between strobe flashes and may move between them whereas you are always directly behind the flashing light.
Lohnam446 wrote:
I am going to hold it away from my body with my arm across my body (once upon a time how they trained police).
It's how my son was taught two years ago.
It's how my son was taught two years ago.
Its how I was trained by a former officer / instructor 15 years ago. I did not know if it was the current method or how long it lasted. Been doing it too long in practice to change it now.
Glen, how effective is a quick flash, then movement?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7FemqK3JU
Seems like something like this would be effective. Light, move, shoot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7FemqK3JU
Seems like something like this would be effective. Light, move, shoot.
FireForged
New member
If I am pointing a firearm at someone, we are well past the point that I would opt for passive techniques. If I am pointing a gun at someone, I want to view them clearly and in a manner which is unobstructed. A flashing strobe is not going to help me to do that as a strobe is simply an inhibitor by way of distraction and disorientation. I would not have a strobe on my gun. I think a strobe is much better suited as a signaling device and not some sort of defensive aid.
I think a weapon mounted light has its place in some very limited circumstances but generally speaking, I would not want to use a weapon light as a primary light source. As a citizen, I do not want to have to point the barrel of my gun any everything I want to look at. If I were going to have a weapon mounted light, I would also have a handheld light to use as primary. If I could only have one light, it would NOT be a weapon mounted light.
I think a weapon mounted light has its place in some very limited circumstances but generally speaking, I would not want to use a weapon light as a primary light source. As a citizen, I do not want to have to point the barrel of my gun any everything I want to look at. If I were going to have a weapon mounted light, I would also have a handheld light to use as primary. If I could only have one light, it would NOT be a weapon mounted light.
People forget that you do not have to point your gun at anything to illuminate it. We're talking 300-500 lumens here. All you have to do is point at the floor and you can easily see enough to identify anyone who is in the room.
A weapon light enables you to keep one hand free to open doors, call 911, fend off someone who jumps you at close range etc, all while keeping your gun and illumination in action. Too bulky for concealed carry, but I think they're ideal for home defense or those who carry for work.
A weapon light enables you to keep one hand free to open doors, call 911, fend off someone who jumps you at close range etc, all while keeping your gun and illumination in action. Too bulky for concealed carry, but I think they're ideal for home defense or those who carry for work.
fend off someone who jumps you at close range
I fail to see how an appropriate flash light hinders this particular option.
All you have to do is point at the floor and you can easily see enough to identify anyone who is in the room.
Is this not true of hand-held flashlights, as well? A person using a flashlight in his or her off hand need not handle it with great precision, right?
I'm not sold on the strobe feature, but for home defense, I think a weapon mounted light makes sense. Whether mounted to your firearm or in your hand, your position has been compromised if you're shining a light around. I understand not wanting to point the weapon at something you're not willing to destroy, but if I'm already investigating, gun in hand, I'm beyond that point....I think.
I don't have a weapon mounted light. This is hypothetical for me.
I don't have a weapon mounted light. This is hypothetical for me.
stephen426
New member
Strobe is pretty annoying, but far from incapacitating. Would you bet your life on it? I can point shoot pretty well and a strobe light makes a pretty good target. I'm sure the strobe effect would mess with your vision as well.
I have the combination light/laser from Crimson Trace for my Glock 43. With the integrated laser, you could theoretically hold the gun away from your body and still light someone up. The integrated laser would give you better confidence for making hits on target. I don't use the strobe feature though since I find it pretty annoying.
I have the combination light/laser from Crimson Trace for my Glock 43. With the integrated laser, you could theoretically hold the gun away from your body and still light someone up. The integrated laser would give you better confidence for making hits on target. I don't use the strobe feature though since I find it pretty annoying.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
There is quite a debate about the utility of hand held flashlights vs. weapons mounted lights. There may be a differentiation between police/military and civilan usages.
So - I think we have established that the strobe as a blinding or nonlethal option is pretty nonsensical. Why?
1. It doesn't disconcert lots of people. If it is disconcerting to some - it might be you are one of time. If you find it troublesome when looking into the light, it will be when you are strobing the bad person.
2. Distance - and angle - both dramatically decrease the effects.
3. They give you away. If you are clearing your house (Big note - bad plan unless in extremis to rescue someone, you are the target. As an opponent that took cover and waited to ambush the 'good guy' I found lights a delightful target opportunity. Dust in the air make a path to you, BTW. Gunsmoke - my friends - think about it. It may not matter to an entry team in the military or police, but it will to Johnny Commando in his PJs of death.
4. Are you truly dark adapted? Given my degree, I can describe in horrendously boring detail how this works. Let's say that you are truly in the dark for more than 30 minutes - not a room that has some light leaks, like the standard bedroom. Thus, you are at peak rod and cone sensitivity. You can detect a match miles away. So, take a really bright flashlight and light up the room ahead of you. A real flame thrower tac light. I've done this. Guess what - you say a tremendously bright image of the room that causes you to slam your eyes shut reflexively (good move - Eh?) and you see a positive afterimage that lasts several seconds and clearly interfers with vision.
BTW - this speaks to the quick flash and move technique. It's a good idea but you can get a big blind spot from the flash.
5. The off body holds - nice idea but if you are not an idiot you know where the person is because of:
a. light leaks and bounces off the surrounds.
b. You are not an idiot - if you see the light high in the air and you know most people are carrying it in their left hand - there's the dude. Fire a volley at the projected spot. Did that in FOF.
Proper light usage is incredibly useful but naive use of gadgets aren't that useful. You got to try this.
Against a hidden opponent - it's iffy. One reason not to explore. Of course, your home invader won't hunker down and wait for PJ wearing Shotgun Racking Light Bearer.
One vision thing for the elderly - when my cataracts started I didn't realize how they impaired my vision. I could see you fine in the daytime, or so I thought. I did have problems with glare at night which was getting bad. However, in a night (or really a simulated dark shoot house), I couldn't see poop. I totally missed a guy in dark clothes with a dark gun. I was dead and the SO looked at me like I was an idiot. He was correct.
So - I think we have established that the strobe as a blinding or nonlethal option is pretty nonsensical. Why?
1. It doesn't disconcert lots of people. If it is disconcerting to some - it might be you are one of time. If you find it troublesome when looking into the light, it will be when you are strobing the bad person.
2. Distance - and angle - both dramatically decrease the effects.
3. They give you away. If you are clearing your house (Big note - bad plan unless in extremis to rescue someone, you are the target. As an opponent that took cover and waited to ambush the 'good guy' I found lights a delightful target opportunity. Dust in the air make a path to you, BTW. Gunsmoke - my friends - think about it. It may not matter to an entry team in the military or police, but it will to Johnny Commando in his PJs of death.
4. Are you truly dark adapted? Given my degree, I can describe in horrendously boring detail how this works. Let's say that you are truly in the dark for more than 30 minutes - not a room that has some light leaks, like the standard bedroom. Thus, you are at peak rod and cone sensitivity. You can detect a match miles away. So, take a really bright flashlight and light up the room ahead of you. A real flame thrower tac light. I've done this. Guess what - you say a tremendously bright image of the room that causes you to slam your eyes shut reflexively (good move - Eh?) and you see a positive afterimage that lasts several seconds and clearly interfers with vision.
BTW - this speaks to the quick flash and move technique. It's a good idea but you can get a big blind spot from the flash.
5. The off body holds - nice idea but if you are not an idiot you know where the person is because of:
a. light leaks and bounces off the surrounds.
b. You are not an idiot - if you see the light high in the air and you know most people are carrying it in their left hand - there's the dude. Fire a volley at the projected spot. Did that in FOF.
Proper light usage is incredibly useful but naive use of gadgets aren't that useful. You got to try this.
Against a hidden opponent - it's iffy. One reason not to explore. Of course, your home invader won't hunker down and wait for PJ wearing Shotgun Racking Light Bearer.
One vision thing for the elderly - when my cataracts started I didn't realize how they impaired my vision. I could see you fine in the daytime, or so I thought. I did have problems with glare at night which was getting bad. However, in a night (or really a simulated dark shoot house), I couldn't see poop. I totally missed a guy in dark clothes with a dark gun. I was dead and the SO looked at me like I was an idiot. He was correct.
I have one on my HD handgun. We use the flashlight feature only and that is only really for my wife who can't see squat in the dark. She knows if a bad guy was entering the house where to take the kids and barricade at. The light really serves 2 purposes #1) Illuminate the target so she can identify it. #2) add weight to the handgun to reduce recoil. It knocks just enough "snap" off that she can shoot it much better then without.
As far as disorienting the bg it may for a second if they ain't expecting it but I wouldn't rely on it.
As far as disorienting the bg it may for a second if they ain't expecting it but I wouldn't rely on it.
I understand not wanting to point the weapon at something you're not willing to destroy, but if I'm already investigating, gun in hand, I'm beyond that point....I think
I'm one of those "go see what that noise was" type people. There are a series of reasons involving not having a reason to believe I would be the planned target of competent criminals, police response time, and living in the sticks - besides I would feel a bit stupid calling the police every time I heard a noise. Most of the time what I am investigating is a commotion from the dogs and is outside
It would be highly inappropriate to have a weapon at a low ready position or pointed at some biker going by at night or the people on horses. The few times its been lost individuals stopping in cars would likely also be an issue. A gun "casually" in my right hand and behind my leg is enough of a message for anyone who may not be as "lost" as they suddenly decide they are. Its plenty adequate for the raccoon that is far more likely and better then nothing should it be a bear or such.
I know the time honored advise of "barricade yourself and your family and call the police". If I knew it was an intruder in the house - sure. But I doubt this is the plan that most people on these boards go with for every bump in the night
FireForged
New member
We're talking 300-500 lumens
I wont be using 300-500 lumens for anything. Certainly not inside my home while in absolute darkness.
All you have to do is point at the floor
have you ever been in a real crisis before? If you have then I am sure that you have at one time or another, ran into a problem. Think about the last time that everything went south... now consider that someone tells you, "all you have to do is". ( It sounds a little silly when you consider it that way). I have learned that the world is not perfect and if all you have is a weapon mounted light, you are at some point going to have to choose between using it poorly with the muzzle down or making the best use of it by pointing the gun in the direction that you need light. You say its enough light while pointed down?... well maybe in a perfect world it is. The world aint perfect and not all circumstances flow in the way you would expect.
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Pointing things...
In the military and LE training I've had, the weapon mounted light was useful for CQB clearing where you are the aggressor but was discouraged for defensive use or search. The biggest problem being the temptation to use the weapon light as just a light leading to pointing a loaded weapon at whatever you were trying to illuminate which is inappropriate and needlessly dangerous in many circumstances, think startle reflex, weapon safety, flashing friendlies, etc. I was taught a handheld flashlight is more appropriate for most LE or defensive scenarios with your choice of techniques (such as flash, fire, move).I've played with strobes and found them irritating but not causing any effects good and bad beyond what a steady bright light does.
In the military and LE training I've had, the weapon mounted light was useful for CQB clearing where you are the aggressor but was discouraged for defensive use or search. The biggest problem being the temptation to use the weapon light as just a light leading to pointing a loaded weapon at whatever you were trying to illuminate which is inappropriate and needlessly dangerous in many circumstances, think startle reflex, weapon safety, flashing friendlies, etc. I was taught a handheld flashlight is more appropriate for most LE or defensive scenarios with your choice of techniques (such as flash, fire, move).I've played with strobes and found them irritating but not causing any effects good and bad beyond what a steady bright light does.
Lohman446 wrote:
I did not know if it was the current method or how long it lasted.
All I can say is that's how my son was taught and it's the technique the officers were using a few months ago to search for one of the people who ran from a traffic stop and tried to hide in the weeds along the creek that cuts through our back yard.
My son was home at the time and provided a sort of play-by-play of what the officers were doing and what we could expect to see them doing next. It was kind of like watching a live documentary film.