Strawman purchase???

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RX-79G said:
...Can I call my son's FFL and pay for a gun my son has on layaway? Can my son then go and do a 4473 and take it home?...
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Actually, I think that works as long as you don't wind up with the gun. There are really two elements to the question 11.a. problem -- (1) whose money it is; and (2) who ends up with the gun.

If it's your money and I get the gun, it's a gift. If it's your money, I do the transaction, and you get the gun, I'm doing the transaction as your agent or proxy. In that case, I'm not the actual transferee/buyer and so I lie if I answer "yes" to 11.a.
 
Here is how this whole story unfolded.

I shot a Springfield M1911-A1 Loaded 9mm and REALLY liked it 2 years ago.

I was not able to find the gun except by getting in line at a volume distributor.

1) January 2013. I place a reserve order with Bud's for one of these guns and PAY IN ADVANCE to secure my place in line for delivery when the gun becomes available. Bud's cannot tell me when that will be. The gun is paid in full.

I query Springfield on the availability of the gun. They tell me the gun is in demand and is on allocation to dealers. Springfield says they run orders of this model every three months or so and hope to have all the preordered guns delivered before the end of the year.

Bud's cannot or will not tell me where I am on the list. Just that I have bought and paid for a gun that has not been delivered.

So. . .I look at other on-line gun stores. Able's Ammo being one of them.

2) About four weeks ago, Ables sent me an email at 10:56 in the morning that the gun was available for purchase. I jump on the web site at 11:15 and am told the gun is sold out.

3) I ask to be notified when the gun becomes available and sure enough, about 5 days later, the gun is available again. I jump on the web site and snag one. I pay for that one also and it is delivered last week. Able's sells out of the gun again.

4) About one week later, Able's tells me the gun is once again available, but the price has jumped to $999.99. As of today, they still have them listed in stock.

5) I get on the Bud's web page and ask them how it is that Able's can get at least three shipments of that gun and sell them and Bud's cannot find one to sell that has been paid off for almost a year.

I get an email that they will look into it and refund my money if I wish. I don't really want to do that as I got the gun $200 cheaper than the going rate.

First thing I know, Bud's has a gun and is shipping to my FFL.

The whole issue is I really don't need two of them and that is what prompted the question about whose gun it would be.

It seems my most effective elective is to take delivery of the gun and fill out the 4473 and be done with it. Then I can meet my son at the range and give it to him.

To boil it down, there are two guns, both bought and paid for and one has been delivered and one is soon to be delivered. The soon to be delivered gun was a better buy than the one I got last week. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet to get what you want. I just do not need two of them and don't want to try to sell it to someone I don't know. So I will give it to my son and he can buy me a beer or three.:)
 
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This stuff makes my brain hurt sometimes....

Lets see if I got it right...

Dad orders gun. Pays for it. Has not taken delivery. Wants to give it to son, as a gift.

Does DAD fill out the 4473 and say its a gift, or does SON fill out form?


That's the question, isn't it?
 
Tom, he can do that, but you're suggesting he can't do the other option.

You've offered no reasoning for that, and haven't referenced the fact that it can only be done the other way over state lines and the raffle wording right on the form.
 
You've offered no reasoning for that, and haven't referenced the fact that it can only be done the other way over state lines and the raffle wording right on the form.
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I'm not sure how raffles or interstate transfers enter into this.

I have pointed out the salient facts. It's a felony to falsely claim I'm the actual buyer on the form. The ATF considers the person whose money was used to pay for the firearm to be the actual buyer. Therefore, the person who paid for the gun needs to be the person completing the form.
 
Because in the case of a raffle, the "buyer" isn't the one who paid for the firearm. The raffle giver paid for the gun, so how is the winner going to claim that they are the buyer to sign the form?

And interstate stuff pertains because you have to go through an FFL, and you're saying that a gift doesn't qualify. So there would be no possible way to give someone a gun in another state since you're saying the receiver couldn't sign the 4473 as the "buyer".

I think you're misapplying the lesson about money from the other case where the person filling out the form neither paid for it nor was keeping it. "Buying" in this context means becoming the actual owner, not a demand to know how the person receiving the gun managed to finance it.
 
Tom Servo said:
...The ATF considers the person whose money was used to pay for the firearm to be the actual buyer. Therefore, the person who paid for the gun needs to be the person completing the form.
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It's a bit more, shall we say, multilayered than that.

Question 11.a. on the 4473 asks if the person who is filling out the form is the actual transferee/buyer.

  • You put up the money, you get the gun in the end. That would make you the actual transferee/buyer. So if I fill out the 4473 and claim that I'm the actual transferee/buyer, I've lied.

  • But if I get the gun in the end, I'm the actual transferee, at least. So even if you've put up the money I can fill out the 4473 and truthfully claim to be the actual transferee. The money/gun is a gift.

    • It gets confusing because we don't talk about this variation much, but it's consistent with everything else.

    • Where the money comes from is important not because it's finally determinative. It's important because when seen together with other elements it is circumstantial evidence of intent.

    • So if I you put up the money and get the gun in the end, but I perform the transaction, the totality of the circumstances is pretty conclusive evidence that the intent was the I was getting the gun from the dealer on your behalf, as your agent or proxy; and that I'm not, therefore, the actual transferee.

    • But if you put up the money and I perform the transaction and keep the gun, the totality of the circumstances is pretty conclusive evidence that the intent was for you to make a gift to me of the gun; and I am, therefore, the actual transferee.
 
RX-79G said:
Because in the case of a raffle, the "buyer" isn't the one who paid for the firearm. The raffle giver paid for the gun, so how is the winner going to claim that they are the buyer to sign the form?
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I'm aware of some raffles where the winner is simply given a check for the MSRP of the gun. So gun laws don't really apply. Also, if I buy a gun and raffle it off (instead of giving the winner a check), it's simply a gift from myself (the actual buyer) to the winner.

RX-79G said:
And interstate stuff pertains because you have to go through an FFL, and you're saying that a gift doesn't qualify. So there would be no possible way to give someone a gun in another state since you're saying the receiver couldn't sign the 4473 as the "buyer".
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In fact, there is no way to give someone a gun in another state without an FFL. If I raffle the gun off and the winner is in another state, it has to go through an FFL, which (I suspect) is why the raffles in which the winner is simply paid the MSRP of the gun is simply sent a check. That avoids the FFL problem.
 
According to our resident lawyer, the source of the money doesn't matter as long as the person signing the form is keeping the gun.

The OP could have done what he originally planned.

Can we put a fork in this or does it have to get complicated again?
 
RX-79G said:
According to our resident lawyer,...
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Actually several lawyer post here. Spats and I are two of them.

And responses are getting a bit incoherent because everyone is looking at slightly different situations from slightly different perspectives.

So I'm going to shut this down before we start getting off on too many tangents. I think the OP has an answer to his particular situation.
 
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