Strange situation from the news

S

Strike Penguin

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From an alert e-mail service that I get... It's not local to me (well, it's less than 50 mi. anyway, which is "local" in TX) :D

http://www.crimeweb.net/details.asp?id=7589

First thought that came into my head, after "A cat is a pretty strange thing to steal" is "What, if anything, could have been done, had somebody with a CHL been present?"

My tentative answer to that is "Nothing" because, assuming the initial report is correct, the gun was only brandished, and only a cat was stolen... I don't know what somebody with a CHL could have done other than try to hold these guys for police, and that's assuming that drawing down on them didn't escalate things. What do you all think?
 
Satan worshipers :eek: ? I can only hope those two guys were poor and couldn't afford to give one of their boy or girls a pet so they stole one out of desperation.


Personally, if a cruel looking monster tried to make off with a cat (I like really like pets :o ) I would plant a .38 right in his chest and explain it to a jury need be. No they aren't people, but they are just innocent little animals not to be allowed to be had by sadistic people (especially ones willing to brandish guns at other people)
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Would you let someone makeoff with either of these two?
 
Even drawing down, . . . if the guys just told the CHL holder to kiss off, . . . turned and walked out, . . . nothing to be done.

Good thing though, . . . looks like it should be pretty easy to ID the tee shirt dude, . . . 20 yrs in the slammer for catnapping a kitty:D :D

Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
<<I don't know what somebody with a CHL could have done other than try to hold these guys for police, and that's assuming that drawing down on them didn't escalate things. What do you all think?>>

I'm curious about the thinking here. Are you going to wait for them to shoot someone before you react? They might shoot you first.

If someone draws a weapon to commit a crime, they present a deadly threat merely by presenting the weapon. Shoot them.

<<Even drawing down, . . . if the guys just told the CHL holder to kiss off, . . . turned and walked out, . . . nothing to be done.>>

If you draw your weapon, fire it.
 
Uh-oh, Cat Burglers:rolleyes:

I suspect flashing the gun while commiting a robbery will get you armed robbery most places. Hope the hairbag makes out OK, a pox on the perps:mad:
 
THis is not funny

Around here (Indiana) back in the 80's scum bags were sealing dogs and cats from around homes and using them for dog fights.
What they would do is throw dogs or cats in to the rings with only one of the fighting dogs and it would tair them to peices, then another fighting dog would be brought in and another poor animal would be tossed in.
These scum bags would do this to rais the bets.
I know this from a good friend that was an undercover officer that busted several rings.
If you are into dog fighting you are less than human.
In one case they actualy broke into a pet store and took a good number of animals.
Shoot them and ask questions later.
 
The FBI just busted a huge cock fighting ring not far from me. Those people were idiots they advertised on t-shirts. The t-shirts read (I've been to the DEL RIO cock fights). And people wonder how the get caught.:rolleyes:
 
Simple. Death or imminent threat of death or great physical injury. Weapon was brought out as a threat. Draw, aim, fire, reload and repeat as needed until threat is terminated. Armed robbery and assault with intent to harm/kill. No free pass.
 
"If someone draws a weapon to commit a crime"
"Weapon was brought out as a threat"

Read again, the weapon wasn't out, it was shown but not drawn. I gather that the perp just pulled up his shirt to show it. Then these guys start to leave with the cat. All things being equal, you're looking at starting a gunfight over a cat, in a pet store with other people around.

It looks to me like the only moment where you can shoot is immediately when the guy lifts his shirt and you see a gun. Other than that it's a case of "leaving while brandishing", where's the imminent threat?

I'm sorry, maybe coming from Massachusetts originally this is all just hair-splitting and the cops in Texas won't come down on you like a ton of bricks for just blasting the guy in the store even though he's walking away, but I thought the idea was to avoid killing people when not necessary...

(Though if he's taking the cat for an animal-fighting ring :barf: I'd be happy to shoot him any old time :mad: )
 
After he showed the weapon, anytime his hand went near his belt he could possibly have been drawing the weapon.

It makes no sense that a person could flash a gun, commit a crime, and walk away from a CCW holder. Criminals will start leaving the gun in their belt and just showing it, because that makes them perfectly safe.
 
You show the gun - you used the gun.

Really simple, no nuance required.
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+10

This is brandishing a handgun. Display of a weapon with intent to intimidate. Done in the comission of a robbery. = Armed robbery = by definiton a violent felony.

Flash your gun at me while you take my stuff/pets/whatever/threaten my life, thats a direct and immediate threat on my life, and you're toast.


Now as to a gunfight in a petstore...

That is a big judgement call. If I am not near what is going on, and (assuming I even see the gun) not immediately involved, blasting away is a bad idea. I will try my best to be a good witness. If I am also looking at the lil kitty kats :rolleyes: and that gun threat is directed towards me, see above............
 
If someone had drawn and shot the guy displaying the gun, it would have been a clean shoot- perhaps not a wise decision, but legally justified.
Understand that when the robber displays a firearm in this circumstance it comes with an implied threat: "Do what I want or I'll shoot you." Ability, opportunity and jeopardy are all established.
If someone had shot him in the back as he left... well, this was in Texas, but I don't recommend it.
 
"Justified but (possibly) unwise", then... That makes sense to me. I didn't intend to dispute the justification for shooting (I understand that if he's showing it, he's using it and the threat is there) but more that what you could do on the scene might be dictated by the flow of events and what the surroundings are like. I was thinking of the pet adoption days they have on our side of DFW, where the cages are out front, with nothing to stop a slug from flying out across the parking area and into the road (other than BG's sternum). The solution to that is Good Shooting, I guess. :cool:

Frankly, when it came time to lay down .45 I'd be more worried about accidentally hitting the cat. **** the perp, I wouldn't want to hurt the kitty. :p The cat's innocent. The thief is Just Another A-Hole.
 
tanksoldier wrote:

It makes no sense that a person could flash a gun, commit a crime, and walk away from a CCW holder. Criminals will start leaving the gun in their belt and just showing it, because that makes them perfectly safe.
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What? Why couldn't he walk away? You are not a law officer, and simply having a CHL does not give you ANY powers or reasons to try to stop ANY crime. Your CHL is for SELF DEFENSE ONLY, against immediate bodily harm. Not to make you Wyatt Earp. People who act like that with a handgun liscense simply do not need one. You are a danger to yourself and others.

Think about it. I'm in the store. I see one perp brandish, then you (another perp to me) draw a gun. I shoot you, because you are the more immediate threat, then move to him.....smart? Don't think so.....
 
States differ

As probably everyone knows, states differ on the standard for defending one's self:

1. A reasonable person would believe he/she was in imminent danger of being killed or seriously injuried. This is an objective standard.
2. The person actually believed he/she was in imminent danger of being killed or seriously injured. This is a subjective standard.

Some states may also have a stricter standard:

The person was actually in imminent danger of being killed or being seriously injured. This uses 20/20 hindsight with no room for error.

In addition, states differ on whether there is an affirmative duty to retreat and under what circumstances (e.g., some say no duty to retreat from a habitation).

Most (all?) states also do not allow use of deadly force to protect property.

For example, in my state, the subjective standard is used for defending one's own self. There is no right to use deadly force for the protection of property. You would probably come out okay on self-defense if you told the police/jury the right stuff -- "I was scared to death he was going to pull the gun and shoot me because anyone crazy enough to commit armed robbery for a cat is crazy enough to kill someone just for the fun." However, if you told them, "I thought they would steal the cat to use in animal fights and how could anyone be so terrible to do this with such a cute kitten," then plan on going to prison.

The standard for protecting a 3rd person may vary even from the standards above; e.g., in my state it is the 20/20 hindsight rule.
 
Third Person Protection

Derius T wrote
Your CHL is for SELF DEFENSE ONLY
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NOT in Texas. According to the Texas penal code a CHL has the right to defend a third person.

BTW, at night you can use deadly force to defend property.

Don't mess with Texas!

Chuck
 
Yes, I understand that you also have the right to defend other persons from death or immediate bodily harm by use of deadly force, and in certain states, may protect personal property. That being said, I don't see ANY jury in the word letting you go free for killing a man who was stealing a cat.....thats just stupid....

It makes no sense that a person could flash a gun, commit a crime, and walk away from a CCW holder.
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That is the real issue I was addressing. A CHL does not give you the rights of authority of any type of LEO. It is very troubling that CHL holders think they have the authority to stop crime they see. If you want to stop crime, go to school and become a LEO. That is a very dangerous idea to have, and is serious fuel for anti-gunners to paint CHL holders as vigilanties, ect.
 
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