Strange Rifle, Need Help Learning About It...

[fourbore]

You own a Winchester 1885 "High Wall" rifle that was manufactured in 1888. It has been rebarreled and chambered for 225 Winchester with a tight (.218") bore. The 225 Winchester was a rehash of the 219 Zipper that Winchester used after 1964 (because they had canned the 220 Swift with the old Model 70). It has a "standard" rim diameter but sharing the same head size as the 30-30 and the case has been blown out straighter and the shoulder angle has been increased. If needed, cases can be made from 30-30 cases, or you can buy brass when available (there are 2 lots of 225 brass on gunbroker.com right now).

A chamber cast will tell you what dimensions the chamber is cut to. Custom dies may be made from your chamber cast.

This rings true to me. Although the 218 scenario seems unlikely?? Is this more crazy talk or knowledgeable. Because some of the replies are borderline.... let me not say.

I think we could see a little better what was going on if the OP would purchase that one box of new old stock ammo. The take a GOOD clear photo of the fired brass along side a new/old stock unfired round. Very careful photo so we can hopefully detect any change in taper and shoulder angle.

The OP does not need a chamber cast and he would not know what to do with it even if he had one. Once fired brass is clean and simple and DONE. And yes, he should go back looking for dies if at all possible. The factory ammo may not shoot as well as the properly loaded improved rounds. Then again, factory ammo maybe just fine.

 

[fourbore]

Remember for reloading all he needs to do is neck size once fired brass. I am sure he could improvise some off the shelf die set for that. As they say, not rocket science.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree. A lot of guessing going on here.
What we can be sure of is that a pretty good gunsmith put new barrel and stock on an old Winchester Single Shot action to make it a varmint rifle.

Marked .218 IMP, I think we can assume it was a .218 Improved Winchester Bee. I know of no other cartridge with the ".218" designation. There were a lot of "improvers" in those days. The Ackley system was not necessary for rimmed cartridges, you could blow them out any way you liked.

At some later date, that or another gunsmith apparently ran in a .225 Winchester reamer to get the larger case and added that to the barrel stamp.

OP says "To be clear, yes, I've been shooting the rifle. It came with half a dozen boxes of .225 Win, and that's what I've been putting through it."
All he has to do is to put a fired case up next to a fresh round and look for any unusual expansion that would indicate the gunsmith had his own ideas about what a .225 should look like. There is not much scope for improving the .225, it pretty much IS an Improved Zipper, the difference only mattering to the reamer grinder.

As to barrel and bullet diameter, we have the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester.
ALL are .224" guns, the numbers on the box arising from the advertising department.
Strangely the .22 Hornet, .22 Jet, and .22 Savage are NOT .224" guns.

A BORE of .218" would only be a thou undersize and not unusual, but I doubt it was in the mind of the gunsmith as he wielded his stamps.
I doubt anybody was freshing out .222" barrels to .225" barrels, either.

 

[603Country]

I’d love to have that rifle.

 

[fourbore]

218 is 6 1000's under. That is quite a big squeeze for 224 jacketed bullets.

The OP could pull a bullet from the box that came with the gun and measure that. Probably 224.

The ammo the OP is shooting may be the improved relaods. I suggested he purchase that box of new old stock 225 for reference. (and later use) How could someone just walk away from that?

I’d love to have that rifle.

Me too, but; I might look at making some changes.

 

[Jim Watson]

He said: "It came with half a dozen boxes of .225 Win, and that's what I've been putting through it."

The .218 business is a red herring, arising from the Internet Era's failure to distinguish between bore and groove diameter. It may well have a .218" BORE but the groove diameter is much most likely .223"+.

Sako once sent out some seriously undersize barrels in American calibers in their early days in the market, and pressures were high. The OP does not describe anything like that and I doubt we will see any such when he shows us pictures of fired cases.

 

[natman]

Agree. A lot of guessing going on here.
What we can be sure of is that a pretty good gunsmith put new barrel and stock on an old Winchester Single Shot action to make it a varmint rifle.

Marked .218 IMP, I think we can assume it was a .218 Improved Winchester Bee. I know of no other cartridge with the ".218" designation. There were a lot of "improvers" in those days. The Ackley system was not necessary for rimmed cartridges, you could blow them out any way you liked.

At some later date, that or another gunsmith apparently ran in a .225 Winchester reamer to get the larger case and added that to the barrel stamp.

This seems a likely explanation. Rebarreled originally in 218 imp or possibly 218 and improved later. Still later rechambered in 225.

The mistake was not removing the 218 markings before restamping 225.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Zipper

What if the "8" was a poorly done "9". Could that be an 219 Improved Zipper? There was a kinship noted between the Improved Zipper and 225 back in the day.

 

[Art Eatman]

The .225 ammo works well, so the .218Imp stamping is irrelevant.

.218 land diameter; .224 (probably, give or take a thousandth) groove diameter.

 

[Scorch]

This rings true to me. Although the 218 scenario seems unlikely?? Is this more crazy talk or knowledgeable.

It rings true because I don't comment unless I know what I am talking about.

218 is 6 1000's under.

No, .218" is .001" under standard bore diameter (.219" bore diameter for .224" groove diameter).

The .218 business is a red herring

No, the .218 is to indicate that the rifle has a tight bore and let whoever loads for it to not try to hot load it.

 

[Slamfire]

Well I am going to say

Why the heck didn't my relatives leave me such a neat rifle!!!.

Best of luck with that 1885 Highwall, just keep the barrel and action clean, reload for it, and all will be well.

 

[J.G. Terry]

What do the fired cases look like? Pictures of these cases would be helpful. My best guess is those marks had meaning to maker and owner. For these rest of us it's still a guess.

 

[Paul B.]

"What if the "8" was a poorly done "9". Could that be an 219 Improved Zipper? There was a kinship noted between the Improved Zipper and 225 back in the day."

I'm inclined to agree with this comment. I expanded the picture as much as my computer would allow and frankly, I believe it looks more like a buggered up 9 than an 8.
Paul B.

 

[30Cal]

Very cool. I know next to nothing about any of the possible chambers in play here, but slugging the bore is pretty quick and easy and would answer a lot of the questions. I for one would like to see a side-by-side picture with fired and unfired cases.


One of the things to keep in mind is that the names we see on the internet and in print for old custom chambers often don't line up with what the gunsmiths stamp on the barrels. I have what is commonly called a 257 Roberts Ackley Improved. I bought it cheap because the "257 Rem Imp" stamped on the barrel left a lot of questions as to what the chamber really was.

If ammo/components/dies start looking expensive, you may find you'd be able to enjoy it more with a new barrel on it after your current supply runs dry.