Store Owner shoots Burglar

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Lets be realistic here:

People are afraid when confronted, people are not bound to tell the truth to save their own skin. ...and the law is far from perfect.


You don't really know if the burglar "had a shotgun like object" or not and neither does the law. We also don't know whether or not mister big and bad store owner with the gun suddenly found himself in real life peril, panic and saw something that wasn't really there. Do we?


In the end it will depend on the state laws I gather. But after some careful consideration, experimentation and conversation with people who know much more then I do Wildalaska's "Cower, cover, cell phone...." is the very best defense in every situation.
 
Well, first of all the shooting is still being investigated. And if it goes to trial will be a very interesting case. THe burgular was shot 4 times thru a window and was killed after he pointed something at the property owner. Later found to be a tire iron. Was the property owner threatened? DId he fear for his safety? Probably so, but he was OUTSIDE and could have retreated. Virginia law doesnt have a CASTLE DOCTRINE, it has a RETREAT DOCTRINE (<-- uggggg) Plus Va Law says that you cannot use deadly force to protect property.... Now I am not a lawyer nor am I abdicating any rights the criminal might have.... but waiting on the police to arrive and being a good witness would have been the smart thing here.
 
Whatever happened to the bad guy being wrong, he brought his own death on himself by breaking into a store and making a threatening movement towards and armed man! That is the reality of the situation.
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It is indeed, whether or not he actually made a threatening movement, and it is also completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shooter's action was lawful.
 
The facts are reasonably clear, fast asleep, phone call "Your alarm is going off" leap out of bed, drag on clothes, and take pistol, a couple of blocks to his garage.

If he had a pistol in a holster, quite different than pistol picked up from next to bed, placed in vehicle, drive a couple of minutes, jump out of vehicle, see broken window/door.

Blood pressure 160 over 95! not really wide awake yet, pistol is in hand, See's movement, a glint of metal? maybe, up gun, bang/bang etc.

Me, wide awake in one minute, my lovely Wife? twenty of those minutes, maybe.

Worse case scenario, an expert witness describes this possible scene to a lawyer in court, his lawyer.
The DA asks questions, aggressive? Jury listens, makes a decision based on the facts, and the fact that the Police did not charge you directly after the fact.

In my State Florida, the Police can not charge you unless a crime had occurred, you shooting a criminal who you do not know, in your place of business, based on a paid alarm company's phone call? after breaking in, at night?

Clean up glass, new window. Time will lesson any bad feelings, but not being dead (you) is good.
 
Shooting someone = suck city.
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There is a saying in the military that you never let the enemy show you a picture of their wife/girlfriend/children/family/etc. Once you see that picture you are going to have a hard time fighting them. There are some people that can kill someone, go home and sleep like a baby with no worry. They are called sociopaths. For the rest of us if you kill someone no matter what you it is going to change your life. I really would like some of you who have had to kill in the line of duty, mainly the military, to chime in on this.

It's not going to matter it is still going to be such city. You may think you have to do it to stay alive and it turn out you were wrong. That is going to suck even more. Just remember that.
 
Wildalaska"
"Cower, cover, cell phone...." is the very best defense in every situation.
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No, this is certainly not the best defense in every situation.
Every situation is different.
And law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.

The police do a fairly decent job of catching criminals after they have killed, robbed, raped, etc...
But a police force does not necessarily make a society great or safe....
It's the citizens of that society, who rise up and take a stand against the predators, who make the difference.


As for whether this shooting was justified or not....

If the criminal/suspect did in fact break in to the business, then the criminal/suspect chose to place his life in jeopardy.
Sounds to me like he got what he deserved.
 
There are some people that can kill someone, go home and sleep like a baby with no worry. They are called sociopaths. For the rest of us if you kill someone no matter what you it is going to change your life. I really would like some of you who have had to kill in the line of duty, mainly the military, to chime in on this.
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You can call be a sociopath if you like, I don't care, but I killed some Iraqi soldiers during the Gulf War and it did not bother me at all.
They were shooting at us, we were shooting at them.
We succeeded and they failed.
It really is that simple.

BTW, I'm not an alcoholic nor a drug addict, I have a stable job and a great family, and I sleep just fine at night.
And I don't take taxpayer's money by claiming PTSD at the VA.
 
Not putting your life in risk over property (which is probably insured) makes sense. However, I am a business owner and will check out the business if the alarm goes off. If I pulled up and saw a guy pointing something that looks like a weapon, I would most probably open fire. That is self defense and not defense of property. Its not like the store owner went into the business to "clear" it. He arrived and was met with what he believed to be deadly force. Seems like a justified shooting from that angle.

By the way, great posts from TailGator.

Part of that employee training I mentioned in the first paragraph is that I tell employees that I can replace anything that a burglar steals or wrecks, but that they are unique, and loved by someone, and therefore irreplaceable. We would be reading a vastly different story if the burglar in this scenario had really been armed and had fired before the business owner could react. I don't see why a business owner would put himself or herself in that position.
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"Cower, cover, cell phone...." is the very best defense in every situation."



No, this is certainly not the best defense in every situation.
Every situation is different.
And law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.
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Well I disagree with you sir. Taking a position that is better suited to your defensive (Cower) holding that position (cover) and calling for backup ASAP (Cellphone) is, in most ever case imaginable (short of all those "SHTF" events we like so much to discuss), your best tactical option if it is at all possible. And those are tactics they taught you in the marines is it not?


Not to mention that first part (cower) creates an opportunity for the bad guy to either lessen aggression or escalate aggression. Which will serve both your conscience and the law should you be forced to shoot.


and law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.
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I think people on TFL are harping to strongly on the cower (Coward :D) part, maybe wildalaska needs to rephrase that a bit for the sake of everyones macho bravado :p


Maybe:

Deescalate, cover, cellphone . . . :cool:
 
Taking a position that is better suited to your defensive (Cower) holding that position (cover) and calling for backup ASAP (Cellphone) is, in most ever case imaginable (short of all those "SHTF" events we like so much to discuss), your best tactical option if it is at all possible. And those are tactics they taught you in the marines is it not?
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I was a soldier, not a marine, and no, we were never taught to "cower" in the face of the enemy.
And we did not call for backup ASAP unless we were being overwhelmed.

Sure we were taught to use cover and concealment when possible....but we sure as heck didn't sit in a hole waiting for the enemy to get tired and go home.
The object was to engage and destroy the enemy.

Obviously, as a civilian, one does not go on patrol seeking out "the enemy" as does a soldier.
But when confronted by the criminal element, one should not run away when one has the means to engage and stop the criminal.
 
Why?
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It says alot about the state of our society when one even asks such a question.

Because, I feel that it is the duty of every good law abiding citizen to stop crime whenever possible.
Evil triumphs when good men stand by and do nothing....this might sound corny to some folks, but it is true nonetheless.

And when it comes to crime, this is another true statement:

If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.
 
Because, I feel that it is the duty of every good law abiding citizen to stop crime whenever possible.
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I guess I'll be a bad citizen who goes home to his wife and kids rather than engage some thug stealing cigarettes.

I mean, stop a rape? Sure. Get killed because I confront some thug stealing from a grocery store? Not just no, HELL no.
 
I guess I'll be a bad citizen who goes home to his wife and kids rather than engage some thug stealing cigarettes.
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Yeah, that's the short-sighted sentiment of alot of folks.

But you have to look further down the road and ask yourself "what type of society am I leaving my children?" and "what am I teaching my children by letting the crime go unchallenged?"

Take a look at the most crime-free areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there care and take an active role in stopping crime.

Take a look at the most crime ridden areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there turn a blind-eye to the crimes being committed all around them.


Again, if one is not part of the solution, then one is part of the problem.
And you don't need to wear a badge to do the right thing.
 
Take a look at the most crime-free areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there care and take an active role in stopping crime.
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Yeah.... except my whole town, nah, the whole area within 25 miles of me, is largely "crime free". The reason is because we still embrace the concept of teaching morals to our children, not because we "engage the enemy".

Or because we're watchful and report crime....

or because we actually care about our community....

Do not confuse a refusal to "engage" with doing nothing.
 
Yeah.... except my whole town, nah, the whole area within 25 miles of me, is largely "crime free". The reason is because we still embrace the concept of teaching morals to our children, not because we "engage the enemy".

Or because we're watchful and report crime....

or because we actually care about our community....
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So you're telling me that there are no non-law-enforcement citizens in your whole town who would stop a criminal as he was committing a crime?


This is nothing to brag about.
 
Wow...... lots of views on this post.
I much rather would like to go home telling my wife, kids and grandkids that I stopped a crime by calling 911 and waiting and watching the situation until the law got there to ensure there was an accurate accounting, instead of going home and telling them that I shot a guy 4 times thru a window and he wasn't armed.... but he DID point a tire iron at me thru a window while he was inside the building and I was outside! WOW... ya know it's one thing to actively defend yourself, your family or a third party that your in fear for their life/safety. But come on people.... lets be real about this. Like I said a few posts ago, this is still being investigated so all the facts are not out yet, but based on just what was in the papers and on the local news there is no way that this can be deemed self defense.
Everyones life, the 2 involved, and the families involved would have been much better if the storeowner just got 911 on his cell phone and gave a second be second accounting of what was going on while observing. Bad guy would be in alive and in jail and the storeowner wouldnt be sweating the outcome of the investigation.
 
So you're telling me that there are no non-law-enforcement citizens in your whole town who would stop a criminal as he was committing a crime?


This is nothing to brag about.
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I have no idea what action most of the people in my town would take to "stop a criminal". I sincerely hope that most of them would not impose the death penalty for property crimes, would not risk getting themselves killed over a burglary and would do something that is rationale, like whip out the ole' cell phone and call the police. Heck, maybe even yell "HEY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" from a safe distance and place.

and, frankly, I consider not being willing to kill a human being over a property crime to be something, not to be bragged about, but something to be expected.

and, I have no desire to stop a crime so that I can "brag about" it.
 
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