Stopping the Bullets--L.A. Police Panel OKs Background Check on Sales of Ammo

Status
Not open for further replies.
TAZ & et all,

"never again sell to LEOs, etc. ..."

Although I am very pro-LEO (read this most emphatically = pro-rights , but very muchso pro-LEO & all that they ((should)) stand for), this may be the exact way to actually get the point across.

Cut 'em off & ? ;)

Whoops! No flame here to our very own LEOs, but, how else to drive the point home re "you are either for us all (& that does mean you too), or you are against us."

Cut off the "thin blue line's" supply chain & "there you go."

Again, no flames at LEOs (far from it), but, the fact remains ....

Many times do "we" come across the difference between LEOs enforcing "specific instances of law" that are hardly in equity of that of the Bill of Rights - moreso to enforce that which a specific "public enitity" decides that "which is in the publics' best interest," which is most probably decided upon by a mayor, or governor, or "some guy who took it upon himself" ...... I could throw up.

There will come a time, and that very shortly, which will decide on which side you stand.

You are either for the Bill of Rights, or you are not.

You will either stand for that or will you not.

This is not a question. It is a statement & "the glove - thrown down."

Zip for flames, folks, but damn. I hear that LEOs will enforce "all Consitutional laws," etc. &, & but, which are those?!

We'll have our rights violated at every turn, until the SCOTUS decides (in their unfathomed wisdom - upon some illegal law/s which have no effect upon the criminal element at all) that we should actually have redress? Perhaps 10 years (or more!) in the future ... ?

Until the law enforcement community actually stands with the citizens of these United States, we are purly screwed.

& I'll state now, that until they (LEOs) do, cut 'em off. No guns, no bullets, no night-vision, no thermal imagery, no nothing ... without the tools, there is no enforcement of illegal laws.

All comments welcome. You got the e-mail ....
 
labgrade, I was talking yesterday with the owner of Wisconsin's largest gun shop (and also #1 in traces for "crime guns" in the nation). We got to talking about the BATF, and he was telling me how great the Milwaukee BATF office has been to work with. I've spent time with the head of our local ATF office, and he _is_ a good guy. Anyway, I told the dealer that, yes, they are good guys, but what happens if they get the marching orders we don't want to think about. A usually articulate guy, he couldn't come up with an answer.

LEO's: do not in any way construe this as an
attack on you. I support you and, if I had been physically strong enough years back, I'd
be on the force with you. But, if you are given orders to go door to door to collect guns, I think most LEO's will have to consider their families first, and will follow orders. I suspect I won't get too many arguments about that statement.

Dick
 
Anyone that enforces these types of laws is selling his soul no matter the excuse. When they round em up ( door to door ) everyone should know why & if they aid them they will be a party to this: http://members.localnet.com/~bobg/ifa6.htm

That said, I have great faith in the LEO members here @ TFL to do the right thing. The reason being that this is not the kind of board a follower of these types of activities would visit, or feel at home - BATF survelliance excluded of course ;). I DO fear that a good percentage of the general LEO population will not question their orders unfortunately though, this has been proven to be the case throughout history.

Any way we look at it, as it has been said, there is a time coming that we must choose sides. It's not that hard to get a decent job. But then again infiltration may be your forte'.



[This message has been edited by scud (edited May 06, 2000).]
 
Lest we forget, many of these anti-gun decisions are not made by or on behalf of the line LEOs. They're made by politicans who are not police officers or if they are, are political appointees to their high office within the department.

Turning to the posts against LEOs or calling for the disbandment of departments, yes there are bad apples, but that applies to both the public and private sector or almost any enterprise involving humans. As humans LEOs are not infallible and to lash out against everyone who serves society as LEOs because of the mistakes of a few is as distasteful as racism, prejudice and sterotyping.

Lest we forget, there are LEOs, especially the members of LEAA, who are working alongside the NRA, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, etc. to to protect our rights via lobbying in Washington. There are LEOs who have paid the ultimate price in protecting society and the values we hold dear to us. Please do not dishonor them.
 
The whole durn situation is ignorant......to begin with why arent the felons and the mentally troubled the ones that are registered and the quick check system to see if there trying to buy...yeah I know the answer, but they have framed the debate away from that and instituted laws and rules that have us arguing a losing position.....Ill just have to keep buying ammo.......also if any one really believes that the police depts and federal depts wont have ammo or firearms or other tactical goodies they deem necessary even if you could manage to get the cooperation of every gun and ammo maker, dealer, etc., your fooling yourself. What do you think happens to those confiscated firearms? They all dont become manhole covers., they have a practically endless supply of parts from stripped guns, they buy there ammo in huge lots.....besides I dont want them unarmed, despite what some people here seem to think, there are some real Pos out there that we would all be better off if they were arrested.....its not a us or them situation and I hope it dosent become that. Yep there are abuses and they know it and we know it....just like there are abuses by us "civilians".....there is no body perfect here, we are all just trying to get through this horrible situation we find ourselves in and we have to find a way to succeed----thats my 1/2 a centavo.....in the mean time buy ammo and reloading components...and to think all that boy scout training wasnt wasted...."be prepared"....have ya ever noticed that no matter what the laws or regulations who the people are that are least effected?---part of that preparation should be to save money and to gain wealth....we owe it to our families not to become marytrs to rigid postulating and so called "lines in the sand" we need to keep the goal in mind and work in that direction..we have to outhink and out manuever these sob's......right now they know if they say "boo...were gonna ban ammo" the gun community goes ballistic.....so what are they gaining from that effort?....I have to wonder if its beyond the adage of "divide and conquer" or have they got so much of our resources tied up fighting these multiple intrusions on the second amendment that they feel it will help them on the national level at election time by draining our funds.....they have to know that they can suffer hughe losses at the national and local level with this sort of stuff....or it could be with the successes they have had in ca, md, mass, etc., with the cooperation of the whitehouse that they think they can push them through.......fubsy.
 
I had the strangest dream last night. Gun control was finally taken to its logical conclusion, but there were no door-to-door searches, or desperate stands by lone gunowners dying amidst teargas, but it was depressing nonetheless. See, in the dream, if you owned a gun, you were not eligible for a driver's license or social security. How did they know if you owned? 4473, which in the dream was somehow a public document (don't know how). See, the 2nd wasn't being infringed at all, just "privileges" like a DL so it would wash. Before you call me a paranoid kook, I know that it might run afoul of the 14th, but heck, the subconscious works in weird ways. The last thing I remember is watching dream-TV and people turning in guns while saying, "What choice do we have? I have to be able to get to work." I'm not going to embellish and say I woke up screaming, or in a puddle of pee or anything, but it did leave me with a creepy feeling I have yet to get rid of. Just when I think that's a little harsh, I go and read something like this article.

Anyone else ready to be counted as a delusional paranoid? I've thrown my hat in the ring ;)



[This message has been edited by Gopher a 45 (edited May 06, 2000).]
 
Years ago, I hear a former (burned out) cop say there were only three kinds of
people:

- Cops, who could be trusted,
- Victims who were weak or idiots, or both, and
- People who break the law.

Interestingly enough, it was an active duty LEO who told the guy he was full of
it.
-----

Thursday I spoke with a LEO for about a half hour. The older LEOs are as fed
up with the politics and new-fangled (SWAT, etc.) tactics as are many civilians.

The Constitutional infractions that anger us can be traced directly to politicians
and the new guys who have been trained to know no different (being selected
and trained in the “new methods”).

Most experiences LEOs I’ve spoken with are very upset with (what we call)
JBTs. Perhaps surprisingly to some of us, their arguments are not based on
experience or tradition but on Constitutional arguments.

I find that a good sign.
------

Not all of us are camo-clad militia survivalists.
Not all kids are bad.
Not all LEOs are JBTs.

Yes, they volunteered for the job. But considering how many of them die on
the job, we owe it to the good ones not to “broad brush” the lot of them.

As I’ve stated before, the *vast* majority of Deputy Sheriffs in my county are
polite, understanding, and have a sense of humor and well as a sense of duty.

I support them all the way.
 
Background: Lived in LA for 28 years. :eek:

Comment: LA bites. :mad:

Story: Before I left Ca., I worked in LA county and lived 50 miles away in Kern County. Got off work around midnight every night, drove home (alone) in a piece of junk on I-5 through 45 miles of BFE. The first two years I did this, there were two car-jackings and one dead body (male) found dumped in the desert, all within 10 miles of where I lived.

Got a gun.

Carried it, loaded in the center console every night (BTW, for those not from PRK, this is highly illegal w/o an impossible-to-obtain CCW).

My dad, who grew up in Oklahoma shooting guns and is NOT an anti, was always telling me, "you know that's illegal, dontcha? You could get in a lot of trouble for that." (true)

Response: Yeah, well, it's also illegal for someone to kidnap, rape, and kill me too. Which would you rather do...bail me out of jail or identify my decomposed-after-laying-out-in-the-desert-for-a-few-days body?" :confused:

Just to reiterate....

Comment: LA bites!!!!!!! :mad:
 
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. -Edward Abbey

Oh! I really MISS Oregon. Talk about a stranger in a strange land.
 
Lest anyone mistake me for any type of anti-LEO basher, do the search & find my roots. I was a (self-confessed) JBT - did the military JBT-bit "for the flag" in foreign lands & quit out of disgust - not for "the job" itself (I did, & still do believe very highly in the humanitarian aspects of all honest LEOs), but moreso due to the policies of those "who make the rules." I did decide that those rules, made by those who haven't a clue, were contrary to that which I hold in high regard.

I have debated, at length, with those who would say that any LEO "worth his salt/defender of The Constitution," would drop from the ranks due to personal beliefs, etc. My counter is that I would rather have an LEO, who has beliefs such as mine, be on the job and "selectively enforce" only those constitutional laws, than have some "gung-ho" latter-day "dude-with-a-gun" determine when I'll get to go to court - or immediately die.

I see this whole issue (re BoRs) at only two levels.

We have polititians making anti-constitutional laws & we have those that enforce those laws.

1) Rid yourself of those that enact the unconstitutional laws & there will no longer be a problem. (Oh & BTW, you have to then repeal those laws - another problem in itself)

&

2) Those that enforce those unconstitutuional laws. If those laws are never enforced, they are a moot point. No enforcement = no law = ergo.

BUT, therein lies the rub, huh?

Do I have somewhat of a solution? I think I do. Will I ever tell any of you? I think not.

I have a very deep well which I'll only talk to at midnight (a very dark, cloud-covered night) ... I talk to "it" at times ....

Never misconstrue anything I ever say as being anti-LEO. Far from it. But, and a very big question here, folks of all ilk, where do you stand currently & where will you stand, when the feces hits the rotating blade.

Either you are, or you ain't, & if you say you are but aren't .... the French had very interesting times during the late 1700s ....

......................

Just as an aside, & even though I haven't a single clue as to "who & how," I do know that just about every SWAT team-type commander (en especial) & accompanying buds, have already had their names stored in a special database, along with those of every "anti-type" & their "et ilks." (politicos are most certainly included)

Interesting how public records can find out just about everything a person does - birthdates, SSANs, wives' maiden names, home addresses, to the nth degree, can be found by those who care to.

& too, very interesting that "we," who would actually have the balls to defend our very rights, are "targeted" by "them" (yes, I'm obtuse tonight), but that "they" would jump & scream if we would acutally use their very own tactics in counter.

I'll leave the remaining exercise to those who will ....

History, of our own initial revolution said that we were all pretty much devided at the 1/3 level = those who cared, those who didn't & those who sided with the existing. Of those who cared, there were actually maybe 3% who did anything at all. Those 3% of 1/3, a very small % all told, determined the fate of & decided that we would forge this great nation & its ideals.

That these ideals would be bastardized to the extent that we currently have ... I am, very unusually, speechless.

Do the math.
 
I too am not at all anti-LEO. There are a lot of good cops out there & I appreciate their work. It may well be that they use a specific group to do the dirty work so as to avoid conflict with the officers who stand on a higher moral ground just as Hitler did with th SS, most of them were young with something to prove & were easily taken up by the power that was given them. At any rate a good person, cop or not will be a good person in all circumstances, so I'm sure they'll be cops on our side as there indeed already is.
 
Let me re-iterate: I do not think that all or most LEOs are bad. IMO, the heated quality of this debate comes from the perception that those very few rogue LEOs get away with murder and keep at it until honorable retirement.

Would anyone in the know care to comment if that perception is correct or not? LawDog, what do you think of the level of accountability onthe part of various segments of LEO community (patrol and beat cops, paperpushers, SWAT, alphabet soup people)?

------------------
Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't EXISTING state law preclude local ordinances such as this foolishness.

Of course, some individual or individuals would have to go to court, with an action against the proposed ordinance, it it were enacted.
 
See, in the dream, if you owned a gun, you were not eligible for a driver's license or social security.

You might want to keep your dreams quiet. That's too good an idea for a fully-conscious mind to think up, but one that an HCI mind could really start drooling over. It's so possible it's scary. Off the top of my head, I can't think of how it could possibly be unconstitutional.
 
Think secession could'nt happen again in this Country? If you do then I bet you also believe that the South will just sit by and abide by the same regs that are taking place in Mass,NY,MD and CA.

Buy ammo now the easy way. Pick up a box of pistol ammo each week or alter rifle, shotgun, and pistol ammo every three weeks and before you know it, you will be set for a while.

------------------
"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jack 99:
Just means criminals will now have an extra source of revenue - selling ammo to other criminals. Way to go LA! Keep this up and sooner or later all the dangerous criminals there will be able to retire![/quote]

Hey! Maybe that is the answer? Get all the goblins to retire :rolleyes:
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ctdonath:

You might want to keep your dreams quiet. That's too good an idea for a fully-conscious mind to think up, but one that an HCI mind could really start drooling over. It's so possible it's scary. Off the top of my head, I can't think of how it could possibly be unconstitutional.[/quote]

Erm...yeah, I kinda hesitated before even mentioning it, but I thought it might be something to think about. Being paranoid and all, I expect to have to watch out for this sort of cr*p, though. Like I said, a plan like that might run afoul of the 14th, but then again a lot of seizure laws should have run up against the 4th, but that didn't seem to be much of a roadblock now did it? Ptui!
 
I have to state again that I am absolutely pro, in favor of 100% behind all of the GOOD LEOs. No question, no problem with them whatsoever. I have been one & wish I could have stomached the BS that goes with the territory. I was sadly lacking (perhaps somewhat) in that I could not stand the political nature of what I experienced in government employ & (quite frankly) even worse when applying for (and being one of their "golden boy recruits") and being fully accepted to be another one of "them." Care to drag up a chair sometime & I'll tell y'all about the recruitment process I went through. Pretty GD sad & I bailed (almost forever) & when I thought I might want to re-group & get back in? The Charlie Foxtrot pulled by a local city's SWAT blew that cold dream away forever & I will never again participate. Again. Drag up the chair sometime & I'll 'splain.

But, I'm not an LEO now. I am "only" a citizen and have (quite frankly) more rights and LESS restrictions from that fact that I am "only" a citizen. Politicos and LEOs are the servants of the citizens but, dear friends & neighbors - who, even among ourselves realizes that fact? Sadly, not enough.

I'll again bring it back to the two things. We have polititians making the laws & we have those that enforce them.

Shut down either the illegal laws or shut down the enforcement thereof. Either way, doesn't matter & the result is the same.

If the laws aren't enforced, none practically exist.

Obviously. The illegal makings of illegal (unconstitutional laws) should not be happening. They are, they do. That is a political solution as much as in repealing any existing unconstitutioanl laws. (duh)

So too is the enforcement of existing unconstitutional laws. It is purely political in nature. The politicos pass the laws, the "brass" says to go out & enforce 'em & the grunts (no offense, but you get my drift) take the short end. & never give me any line that says y'all don't get "marching orders." (OK, some do & some don't but by & large, there is the "staffing" (call it want you will) that says today we'll go out & specifically go after/target specic "crime-laden" areas or whatnot) ....

The "administrators (who, BTW, haven't seen the street in about 50 years, are giving orders to thos who do every day, are out of the loop with the day-t-day peoplem could care less, are specifically NOT putting their life on the line every day & could really give a rat's butt about those who they order about and what the end result might be. After all, it is very tough to bring any lawsuit against any specific person AND any lawsuit brought against the "force" or city (et al) itself - well, the bill is, as an end result, being footed by the very people who pay their taxes & expected the deserved "protection" in the first place.

In my mind, they are in exactly the same class as the politicos & should be treated as such. They, to me, are not LEOs.

And, those who enforce the unconstitutional laws - well, well, well .... where shall we start & on which ones shall we choose to say "enough!" ?

In my convoluted mind, I cannot express my outrage at what we have all become. I am so torn between my utmost admiration of all those absolutely great LEOs and at my utter disdain for those who would sully all they purport to stand for.

Therein lies my greatest fear.

That, in a time, we, the law-abiding citizens and all good LEOs may become pitted against one another AND, being on the same side, may find ourselves at extreme odds - one against the other, in extremist.

Both sides, which highly respect another, for all the right reasons - pitted against
each other - one to serve & protect & the other to only defend what once was ours.

That is what our polititians have wrought upon this fine land.

And I see no hope for a peaceful resolution ....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top