stopping power?
- Thread starter czc3513
- Start date
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
Yup, on both counts.
but...
tick...tick...tick
Back on topic.... please!
One-shot stops are not a myth. However, possible and probable are two different words for a reason; they mean different things. One-shot stops are possible; they are also not probable. So while one-shot stops are not entirely mythical, they are overemphasized. Which is similar to the situation regarding overpenetration. My reading of professional materials on the subject (such as the FBI report by Urey W. Patrick, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" and others) is that you are much, much more likely to accidentally injure or kill an innocent person by missing the BG than by overpenetration. And if you miss the BG, it matters very little whether you miss with a HP or FMJ.
IMHO, too many civilians focus on unrealistic engagement distances. Hitting the 10 ring at 50 yards is a fun exercise and helps develop trigger control, but for a civilian the real encounter distances will be far closer, on the order of a few feet to 10 yards or so. Try shooting a life-like target from three feet away; it will make an impression on you, especially when you go for the head shot. This is literally "in your face" self-defense training, and it can be disturbing. Unfortunately, it is a much more likely scenario for a civilian. You don't have the time or distance to aim, and if you do extend your firing hand, you put yourself at risk for having your gun taken from you.
IMHO, too many civilians focus on unrealistic engagement distances. Hitting the 10 ring at 50 yards is a fun exercise and helps develop trigger control, but for a civilian the real encounter distances will be far closer, on the order of a few feet to 10 yards or so. Try shooting a life-like target from three feet away; it will make an impression on you, especially when you go for the head shot. This is literally "in your face" self-defense training, and it can be disturbing. Unfortunately, it is a much more likely scenario for a civilian. You don't have the time or distance to aim, and if you do extend your firing hand, you put yourself at risk for having your gun taken from you.
So I should learn to shoot from my hip at a close target? Sounds like fun!
Then again, I would have to shoot at an elevated target. Shooting stuff on the ground is a little different. If you shoot from your hip at an elevated target you would actually be shooting up.
So if the threat is real, you should probably empty your magazine into the sucker!
I am not really talking about overpenetration of the BG. I am talking about overpenetration of the wall behind the BG. And the next wall. I know that the BG's body would slow down the bullet and that with most guns and calibers the bullet would probably stop in the wall behind the BG. Or would it?
But you are far more likely to miss the BG in a SHTF situation.And my gun is a CZ52, so overpenetration scares me.
Yes, you'll be shooting from the hip if you're shooting at a target that's three feet away. Getting GOOD hits is not as easy as it sounds. Once you try it, you'll know what I mean.
Elevated target? Not sure what you mean by that. From three feet, will you be shooting up? Yes, to a degree, which means you'll need a backstop that's high enough to stop your bullets. Where I practice is next to the side of a hill that's probably 30 feet high, and I practice as close to the hill as possible. From the hip, I'd have to angle my pistol up around 75 degrees to hit the top of the hill. That's about the limit of movement for my forearm from horizontal with my elbow at my hip, so I'll know when I'm getting close to the limits of safety.
You should not necessarily empty the mag into the BG. He may have friends around. And according to the FBI and police reports I've read, accuracy gets worse with each new shot, so after the first 3 or 4, you're more likely to miss than to hit. That having been said, those same reports also indicate that the shooter, under stress, will usually fire until empty.
Regarding overpenetration, the FBI hangun effectiveness report by Urey Patrick (Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness) has two very interesting observations: 1) Skin is elastic, and pistol rounds that overpenetrate tend to slow down a lot as they break through the skin on their way out, making them unlikely to injure another person; 2) "too little penetration will get you killed."
Elevated target? Not sure what you mean by that. From three feet, will you be shooting up? Yes, to a degree, which means you'll need a backstop that's high enough to stop your bullets. Where I practice is next to the side of a hill that's probably 30 feet high, and I practice as close to the hill as possible. From the hip, I'd have to angle my pistol up around 75 degrees to hit the top of the hill. That's about the limit of movement for my forearm from horizontal with my elbow at my hip, so I'll know when I'm getting close to the limits of safety.
You should not necessarily empty the mag into the BG. He may have friends around. And according to the FBI and police reports I've read, accuracy gets worse with each new shot, so after the first 3 or 4, you're more likely to miss than to hit. That having been said, those same reports also indicate that the shooter, under stress, will usually fire until empty.
Regarding overpenetration, the FBI hangun effectiveness report by Urey Patrick (Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness) has two very interesting observations: 1) Skin is elastic, and pistol rounds that overpenetrate tend to slow down a lot as they break through the skin on their way out, making them unlikely to injure another person; 2) "too little penetration will get you killed."
Para Bellum
New member
Stopping Power?
(USS Iowa firing all she has...)
(USS Iowa firing all she has...)
FBI's information about handgun wounding and effectiveness
From the FBI - This is an oldie but a goodie.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Some exerpts:
A person with a DESTROYED heart still can perform voluntary actions for up to 15 seconds. Do a slow count to 15 and see how long that actually is.
The only way to get an immediate stop is to the brain or spinal cord.
From the FBI - This is an oldie but a goodie.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Some exerpts:
A person with a DESTROYED heart still can perform voluntary actions for up to 15 seconds. Do a slow count to 15 and see how long that actually is.
The only way to get an immediate stop is to the brain or spinal cord.
No one really mentioned a "one-shot stop," but a lot of the controversy about that actually centers around the definition of "stop." It is entirely possible for a human or animal to be shot and go down instantly, then get up and run. I don't know how a case like that would fit into the books. More than anything else it just ruins the neatness of the case files. In any case, a hit on the head will usually put down the individual for at least a minute or two.
I've never seen a person shot but I have seen animals hit in the head fall as if hit in the head with a sledge hammer, which in fact is one way beef cattle are sometimes "put down." The one I saw was shot by a shotgun and I assure you it never got up again. There was, by the way, hardly any visible wounding and hardly any blood but down it went. Chickens, on the other hand, do not go quietly, no matter what you do them.
Fairburn, in his book "Shooting to Live" goes into some detail about how he was less and less sure about stopping power the more he learned and experienced. Basically he said that he became less confident about making blanket statements about stopping power with any measure of assurance. While what he wrote is dated (hollow points were yet to be when he was writing), it is still of interest and mostly relevant. Amont other things, he said the 7.63 Mauser pistol was the most feared round in use where he served (Shanghai, China) but he nevertheless armed most of his police with .45 Colt Automatics. One of his statements was that the more his handguns operated like machine guns, the more he liked it (or words to that effect).
He covered a lot of ground in his book (but left a lot uncovered). Among the other things he mentioned was that anyone with a weapon that he had no training on should turn it in to the police (don't try that yourself). He recommended dry firing practice and for home defense, a double-barrelled, short barrelled, outside rebounding hammer, shotgun--packed full of stopping power.
I've never seen a person shot but I have seen animals hit in the head fall as if hit in the head with a sledge hammer, which in fact is one way beef cattle are sometimes "put down." The one I saw was shot by a shotgun and I assure you it never got up again. There was, by the way, hardly any visible wounding and hardly any blood but down it went. Chickens, on the other hand, do not go quietly, no matter what you do them.
Fairburn, in his book "Shooting to Live" goes into some detail about how he was less and less sure about stopping power the more he learned and experienced. Basically he said that he became less confident about making blanket statements about stopping power with any measure of assurance. While what he wrote is dated (hollow points were yet to be when he was writing), it is still of interest and mostly relevant. Amont other things, he said the 7.63 Mauser pistol was the most feared round in use where he served (Shanghai, China) but he nevertheless armed most of his police with .45 Colt Automatics. One of his statements was that the more his handguns operated like machine guns, the more he liked it (or words to that effect).
He covered a lot of ground in his book (but left a lot uncovered). Among the other things he mentioned was that anyone with a weapon that he had no training on should turn it in to the police (don't try that yourself). He recommended dry firing practice and for home defense, a double-barrelled, short barrelled, outside rebounding hammer, shotgun--packed full of stopping power.