Stopping Power

In response to Double Naught Spy's questioning mind... :)

Double Naught Spy said:
What is the difference between a direct shot to the head versus and indirect shot to the head? Are you talking about penetrating versus glancing?

Head shots are not as great as you make them out to be. First of all, just what function does the "brain pan" perform? If you are talking about the skull itself, holding the brain, its disruption does not guarentee anything as people can suffer a lot of cranial trauma and still function.

Next, just because a person is shot in the head does not mean there will be any cessation of activities. There is a lot of head volume that can suffer severe trauma without cessation of activities. Facial shots are classic examples.
Click to expand...

1. Direct head shot is exactly as you described - a non-glancing shot which, give the shape and relative thickness of the heads of some liberals, might be difficult to do.

2. "Brain Pan" refers to the skull volume. And "completely disrupts" means a hit which is violent enough to severely damage the brain. Some .357Mag rounds will exit at high speed, creating a vaccuum that pulls material along from inside the crainium. Any shot that scrambles the mudella (sp?) (motor cortex) or disrupts the connection between the brain and mudella.
 
Sanow n Marshall

Instead of sticking to simple facts these particular authors would rather delude you with paragraph after paragraph of mystical concepts such as "energy transfer," "neural shock," "Fuller Index," "one-shot stopping power," "Strasbourg Tests," and "street results." Although this stuff makes for interesting and entertaining reading, it's really nothing more than a bunch of sophisticated junk-science. :D
 
As a few people have stated, the human body is a wonderful thing, and it can and has on several notable occasions, suffered clearly insane levels of damage and continued to function in some capacity. Add drugs into that mix and you can get a human body that may SEEM at first impervious to harm.

I assure you this is not the case. In MY humble, uneducated opinion, a quick double tap to the torso with an adequate round (ie. 230gr hollow .45) will
in MOST cases do QUITE NICELY to stop said assailant.

HOWEVER, if said assailant does not IMMEDIATELY CEASE ALL THREATENING MOVEMENT, I'm pretty sure that most semi-auto mags hold more than 2 rounds. :rolleyes:
 
2 shots on centerline of upper torso. If adequate stopping has not occurred, then the shots may have been ineffectively placed or the perp is wearing body armor of some sort. 2 shots to the groin region should then work. After that, take what you can get if he/she is still a threat ...evaluate and shoot. Training.

Brian
 
Machinist,

I dare you to call Marshall and Sanow junk-science.

You know it doesn't deserve that term.

It is simply BS!
 
I must say that it is very refreshing to open a thread on "stopping power" and find words like "spine" and "mobility," while the existence of "stopping power" is questioned. Many thanks to JohnKSa, 00 Spy, Kn45 and others for an intelligent thread. It is much more fun to write "Thanks!" than to write an essay on why M&S's books are full of it.

Thanks!
 
Gotta admit, I continue to learn every time I get on this web site!

Thanks!

Now, one other possibility in the shooting department, would be a round put through the liver. Since all of the blood in the body goes through this organ, I would imagine the blood pressure would drop pretty quickly...maybe not as effective as a 22 round bouncing around inside their skull!

A slighly downward shot, going through the liver would also hit the pelvic girdle...so you would probably knock them off their feet from a mechincal view point, and in the time they tried to regain their footing, the blood pressure should have dropped enough to finish said gremlin!
 
Ignoring the Marshall-Sanow fraud, the study of wound ballistics is based on very simple physical principles and the 'engineering part' of bullet design is governed by a clear statement of performance expectations for a design (i.e. "a 9mm bullet that will end up at 150% diameter after penetrating 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin") and is based upon reasonable worst-case scenarios.

Take rifle-resistant plates for ninja-vests. These typically weigh 4-8lbs, cover a 10"x12" area of the chest/back and can most typically stop up to 308 win rifles. The reasonable worst-case is pretty much exemplified here - the highest rifle threat likely encountered by the vests wearer is likely a 308win or similar rifle, as these calibers are so prevalent in world military arsenals. The reasonability of designing a plate that could stop a .50BMG is similar to the reasonability of designing an ultra-high velocity handgun bullet - it might be useful in 10% of the cases, but would prove to be too much of a liability to the intended user the other 90% of the time. As a result, a middle-of-the-road performance is usually the goal - so that the design will work very well in most circumstances. This is why no law enforcement agency uses 'mega voodootrillium' type bullets.

So, in short, a bullet can only be designed to meet standards based on medically established wounding mechanisms, everything else in the world (like 'jibby-shok' and 'energy stretch') is not considered revelant. A bullet that can penetrate 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin will meet FBI penetration depth standards; no attention is paid to bullet expansion requirements in these tests. Shot placement matters alot, fancy bullets are only good if they can meet FBI penetration criteria, IMO. I think that avoidance of a problem is the ultimate 'one shot stop' and will not cause you years of mental disruption as a result. Good luck... Tom
 
Yeah! BS junk science--- got it right

but there ARE other studies

each and every year for over fifty years the FBI has complied an annual report on police officers killed that has been used by many agencies to study the deaths of peace officers. This is a study with repeatable verifiable facts.

it does tell the calibers that killed officers, sure, but do you know what the report focues on?????

Tactics and tactical mistakes. This just may be more important than magic bullets.
 
But what is the reliability of the round when going through a jacket and clothes

Gelleton material would mean a lot more if you used heavy clothing which tends to fill jacked hollow points.
I get a little tired about hearing bullets that travel 15 inches through molds being so great.
The faster that a bullet stops, the less distance it traveles for the same energy has imparted its energy faster and usualy the "WOUND CAVITY" is much worse.
Tests that were done for the millitary back in the stone age found that the Simi Wadd cutter was a very good round becouse of the sharp edge makes the wound cavity much larger than the actual hole.
Nerves that were more than an inch from the actual damaged hole were destroyed by the passing of the bullet
The hole means nothing if it zips through. And if the bullet fails to open up which does happen when the nose is filled with clothing you have nothing more than a hard ball. Pray to God there is no one standing behind them.
 
Triple taps

Two in the chest..(pause)..one in the head. Repeat if needed. That's what my LEO friends tell me,...and why else do they have 3 round burst on SMGs?
 
If I am ever attacked by ordinance gelatin Ill remember that

But it matters little if you cant hit what your shooting at. When I hear these kind of questions and statements I wonder what kind of gun there carring.
I cant hide an N frame smith and I hate shooting 357 mags in a 3 in mod 19 smith. I can hide a charter arms bull dog in 44 special and Ill take that round over a 357 any day.
Big and slow is a lot easer to controle than the Viper rounds in 38's for me.
 
For real stopping power I'll take power disc brakes with abs.

When it comes to shooting, I subscribe to the "shoot till they stop" philosophy regardless of the caliber I am using at the time.
 
A recent ( this month? ) comment by Marshal suggested either using a 12 ga. or being prepared to shoot to slidelock.
 
I recognize the dissimilarity between animals and humans in how they respond to being shot, but have seen many deer shot by me and others with many different kinds of weapons over 50 years. What amazes me is how much energy that can be expended in an animal by various magnums and "great" deer rounds like the 30-06 and, if not placed well, result in a deer going a long ways before either dying, or recovering sufficiently to get away.

Typical heart shot deer will run 80 or more yards. Lung shot deer will go 20 yards. Spine shots and neck shots will drop the animal on the spot. I once shot a small doe through the lungs that was running full speed and it made it about 150 yards before collapsing and dying. Now that was a fairly well-placed killing shot, at 15 yards, with a cartridge that has 3 or more times the power of the 9mm parabellum. It's a good thing she wasn't a BG headed for me.

That said, I'm not impressed by the wound channels of handgun rounds, especially when dispatching wounded animals. I had to finish a deer off that was shot with one and it didn't react at all when hit by my .44 mag in the neck. The 30-06 did the job quite well, however.

My point is that it's extremely difficult, perhaps lucky, to be able to hit a person anywhere in the body, much less exactly where you want to, when you are under stress. It's not the same as shooting at silhouettes. They don't shoot back very often. If you try for head, neck, or other high value, but small targets, the chance of hitting them will be very small.

If a BG were coming at me, I would hopefully carry enough gun and shoot for the fairly large pelvic/upper legs area to drop them. There's always the chance you'll hit the spine. As they start falling, subsequent shots may hit heart, lung, or brain.

Remember, if a BG is trying to avoid getting shot, his head will move before his hips. He may try to drop, duck, or move laterally. The hips move more slowly than most parts of the body, and more truly indicate the direction of movement because they are near the body's center of gravity. That's why football and basketball players are taught to watch the belt buckle, not the head, when trying to defend against an opponent.

Just an old guy's opinion. But what do I know? I still shoot .357 mag. revolvers.

Picher
 
Stopping Power is something I consider in regard to the braking ability of my vehicles ...

Immediate Incapacitation is something I consider in regard to the desired potential effect my hits may have upon some threat ...

I sometimes wonder if the use of the term "Stopping Power", instead of immediate incapacitation, isn't becoming similar to way some folks use the term "clip", instead of magazine.
 
I have read a lot of reports and opinions on the matter of the best man stopping round and I think the most logical is: the bigger the hole the better the hole. I understand the most important facters to be: 1) placement 2) penetration 3) size of hole. Most likely the best practical round for self defence is the .45 auto. Even the .44 mag has a smaller hole (.42"). The .357 sig is going fast (with lots of energy) but makes too small a hole for my taste. I prefer the .40 s&w over the sig. Probably too much is made of energy transfer (perhaps not so with rifle rounds). One can deliver more energy with a ball bat.
 
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