I printed this out to bring to work and show a couple of guys who fought in infantry and encountered tanks in the middle and far east. Their response was: bring the right tools to do the job, and it's easy. Otherwise, don't do the job. The right tools, they said, included a high vantage point (well-hidden), a compass, a good map/chart, and a radio... to call in airstrikes/artillary. Infantry's best role against tanks, they agreed, was as spotters.
Stopping a tank with a rifle?
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George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Rifleman vs Tank:
This former rifleman would use a AT-4 that he carried straped to his ruck for just such an occasion.
Mind you - the AT-4 may not be the best choice... Against an M1A - it wount do much but piss off the crew - but against the T72 and down Sans reactive armour... it will do pretty well. The LAW Rocket - you would hope to at least hit the track to throw them and slow the beast down.
Better than the AT-4 is the Dragon II - one of my favorite toys but one I would not want to actually use in a fight. Best hit the target tank in the rear, where he cant see you. If not rear, at least sides. The multiple warhead gives the Dragon II a fair chance of defeating reactive armour - but not a sure thing - aim for a smooth spot.
The Best is a TOW missile. Bigger, Heavier missile that packs a huge warhead that will smack down a T-80 with full reactive plating.
The main problem with the Dragon - its slow. from launcher to 1100 meter target... it takes 11 seconds to hit. It only takes 4 to whirl the turret and machine gun the operator of the missile... which is easy as the Dragon produces a huge cloud of smoke at the launcher! OUCH!
The TOW is less visible and is much longer range.
Now if your taking Dude with an AR VS the M1... or any other Main Battle Tank =
Thats a different story. The best thing the rifleman can do then is to stalk and wait. Wait for a clean shot at the Commander, then the Driver. If you have a squad with a SAW - you can try to "Button Up" the tank...
but I would rather hit it with a missile or lay a mine for it. Molatov Cocktails can do more than a Rifle. I would try that if I didnt have the heavy hardware on hand. Fill the Mol 1/2 way with Quaker Instant oatmeal then fill the rest of the way with high octaine. The oats will help the gas stick to the target and give you a good burn.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
This former rifleman would use a AT-4 that he carried straped to his ruck for just such an occasion.
Mind you - the AT-4 may not be the best choice... Against an M1A - it wount do much but piss off the crew - but against the T72 and down Sans reactive armour... it will do pretty well. The LAW Rocket - you would hope to at least hit the track to throw them and slow the beast down.
Better than the AT-4 is the Dragon II - one of my favorite toys but one I would not want to actually use in a fight. Best hit the target tank in the rear, where he cant see you. If not rear, at least sides. The multiple warhead gives the Dragon II a fair chance of defeating reactive armour - but not a sure thing - aim for a smooth spot.
The Best is a TOW missile. Bigger, Heavier missile that packs a huge warhead that will smack down a T-80 with full reactive plating.
The main problem with the Dragon - its slow. from launcher to 1100 meter target... it takes 11 seconds to hit. It only takes 4 to whirl the turret and machine gun the operator of the missile... which is easy as the Dragon produces a huge cloud of smoke at the launcher! OUCH!
The TOW is less visible and is much longer range.
Now if your taking Dude with an AR VS the M1... or any other Main Battle Tank =
Thats a different story. The best thing the rifleman can do then is to stalk and wait. Wait for a clean shot at the Commander, then the Driver. If you have a squad with a SAW - you can try to "Button Up" the tank...
but I would rather hit it with a missile or lay a mine for it. Molatov Cocktails can do more than a Rifle. I would try that if I didnt have the heavy hardware on hand. Fill the Mol 1/2 way with Quaker Instant oatmeal then fill the rest of the way with high octaine. The oats will help the gas stick to the target and give you a good burn.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
On TLC (learning channel), I surfed into a show about smart weapons. One part was about a guy at Auburn University who was developing smart bullets with laser sensors. At part of a future wars scenario, they showed a team with a 50 BMG rifle that fired at a laser spot
at the junction of turret and chasis. The
MBT blew up. This was a simulation but it might be an indication of some thought in the area.
at the junction of turret and chasis. The
MBT blew up. This was a simulation but it might be an indication of some thought in the area.
Hi, Edmund,
You are right about all but one thing. In WWII, Ivanski wasn't shooting at Amerikanskis. We were on the same side.
Ed's idea of digging a hole is great. Now you either have to 1) persuade the tank driver to run into it or 2) pick up the hole and move it in front of the tank or 3) put it where the tank can't miss it so the tank falls in the hole and the second tank blows the hell out of you.
Jim
Jim
You are right about all but one thing. In WWII, Ivanski wasn't shooting at Amerikanskis. We were on the same side.
Ed's idea of digging a hole is great. Now you either have to 1) persuade the tank driver to run into it or 2) pick up the hole and move it in front of the tank or 3) put it where the tank can't miss it so the tank falls in the hole and the second tank blows the hell out of you.
Jim
Jim
A little off topic.
When I was in the service, one of our guys was driving along a secondary road in Louisiana just after dark on a September evening when he saw a car approaching, weaving around on the road. In spite of our guy's best efforts to avoid a collision, the car driver, drunk and apparently trying to play chicken, and going well over 60 mph, collided head on with our driver.
This brought out one of the Rules of the Road to Remember.
In a head on collision between a 1939 Chevrolet and an M60A1 main battle tank, the Chevy loses.
Jim
When I was in the service, one of our guys was driving along a secondary road in Louisiana just after dark on a September evening when he saw a car approaching, weaving around on the road. In spite of our guy's best efforts to avoid a collision, the car driver, drunk and apparently trying to play chicken, and going well over 60 mph, collided head on with our driver.
This brought out one of the Rules of the Road to Remember.
In a head on collision between a 1939 Chevrolet and an M60A1 main battle tank, the Chevy loses.
Jim
I can tell you how to stop a tank.
Anyone who has driven a tracked vehicle knows this too (Stay out of the F&**$% wire).
Lay down a mat of woven wire and let the tank run over it, the cleats of the tracks will pick it up and reel it in to the tracks, enough wire will turn a tank into a pill box. It can create something that resembles a cable. And wire that is laid flat on the ground is damn hard to see through a periscope.
I saw a M113 get in to concertina once, and it took 4 guys with wire cutters all day to get it out.
The second way is soft ground. At Ft Hunter Ligget one year, I saw Marine M-60s buried up to their turrets in soft sand, Chaparrals and M113s buried halfway up their sides. The top of the ground was hard but the soil underneath it had the consistency of wet cement. The drivers did not know they were in to it until they felt the tank start to break through, (the soft spots were every where too) then the only thing you could do was floor it and hope you had enough power and speed to ride the wave out to solid ground. It didn’t work much. I’ve also seen an M88 retriever and two D-9 cats trying to pull the tank out. It took all day plus a real intrusting block and tackle setup from a 5 ton wrecker to get it done.
Saw a M113 buried 5 ft deep. It was really a lot of fun to watch. There was a bunch of city slicker officers running the show, (they didn’t have a clue) while a couple of us NCOs who grew up on farms and grew up pulling big pieces of stuck farm equipment out of the mud stood back and commented. We made one mistake though, the CW4 motor officer over heard us, he ran the officers off and put us work, but I digress.
If you put the two together it could be more effective, all you need is enough wire to cause a tank on soft ground to slip a little and the cleats will dig it in, in nothing flat. I know I’ve seen it.
Also a good chunk of hard wood, or a piece of railroad rail shoved between the road wheels can stop a tread real quick. If not break or throw it. I have also seen thrown treads from turning too short (Using the pivot steering) on hot asphalt or in deep/soft sand or gravel. The Tread balls it up under the road wheels then pushes the track off. Saw a M748 ammo carrier (M113 hull that looks like a pickup on treads) throw both treads in soft sand at the same time. No that is going some, we never could figure out how the driver did it since after loosing the first one, the thing was immobile.
But with a rifle Not unless its a rifle like they used in the Robocop Movie
Anyone who has driven a tracked vehicle knows this too (Stay out of the F&**$% wire).
Lay down a mat of woven wire and let the tank run over it, the cleats of the tracks will pick it up and reel it in to the tracks, enough wire will turn a tank into a pill box. It can create something that resembles a cable. And wire that is laid flat on the ground is damn hard to see through a periscope.
I saw a M113 get in to concertina once, and it took 4 guys with wire cutters all day to get it out.
The second way is soft ground. At Ft Hunter Ligget one year, I saw Marine M-60s buried up to their turrets in soft sand, Chaparrals and M113s buried halfway up their sides. The top of the ground was hard but the soil underneath it had the consistency of wet cement. The drivers did not know they were in to it until they felt the tank start to break through, (the soft spots were every where too) then the only thing you could do was floor it and hope you had enough power and speed to ride the wave out to solid ground. It didn’t work much. I’ve also seen an M88 retriever and two D-9 cats trying to pull the tank out. It took all day plus a real intrusting block and tackle setup from a 5 ton wrecker to get it done.
Saw a M113 buried 5 ft deep. It was really a lot of fun to watch. There was a bunch of city slicker officers running the show, (they didn’t have a clue) while a couple of us NCOs who grew up on farms and grew up pulling big pieces of stuck farm equipment out of the mud stood back and commented. We made one mistake though, the CW4 motor officer over heard us, he ran the officers off and put us work, but I digress.
If you put the two together it could be more effective, all you need is enough wire to cause a tank on soft ground to slip a little and the cleats will dig it in, in nothing flat. I know I’ve seen it.
Also a good chunk of hard wood, or a piece of railroad rail shoved between the road wheels can stop a tread real quick. If not break or throw it. I have also seen thrown treads from turning too short (Using the pivot steering) on hot asphalt or in deep/soft sand or gravel. The Tread balls it up under the road wheels then pushes the track off. Saw a M748 ammo carrier (M113 hull that looks like a pickup on treads) throw both treads in soft sand at the same time. No that is going some, we never could figure out how the driver did it since after loosing the first one, the thing was immobile.
But with a rifle Not unless its a rifle like they used in the Robocop Movie
Marko Kloos
Inactive
aztec--I wasn't a M1A1 crewman, although I am quite familiar with them. I was in a LRRP company, what's now called LRSD (Long Range Scouting Detachment). Different service, too. Let's just say that tankers aren't the only ones that can work a laser rangefinder or designator.
Tank vs. car: most car drivers don't realize that the tank needs a lot less spce to come to a top from 50 mph than a car. When I was in Germany, we heard of numerous instances where a tank would stop short, and the (tailgating) civilian car would run itself under the back end of the MBT just as it was coming back down after the emergency brake. It is not difficult to imagine what a sixty-ton MBT will do to a civilian sedan and its occupants.
Tank vs. car: most car drivers don't realize that the tank needs a lot less spce to come to a top from 50 mph than a car. When I was in Germany, we heard of numerous instances where a tank would stop short, and the (tailgating) civilian car would run itself under the back end of the MBT just as it was coming back down after the emergency brake. It is not difficult to imagine what a sixty-ton MBT will do to a civilian sedan and its occupants.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Pete - that depends on the Range to Target and the shooter. I'ld rather pop him offf with an Apache rather than a M16, but some times we just gotta work with what we got... Right?
Of course a Molatov into the open hatch would pretty much be a OSS. Oh wait - not for an M1A though - freakin Halon systems and stuff. Man, those M1's are tough nuts to crack.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Of course a Molatov into the open hatch would pretty much be a OSS. Oh wait - not for an M1A though - freakin Halon systems and stuff. Man, those M1's are tough nuts to crack.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
In mountainous aeras it might be possible to undercut a road enough that light vehicles could pass but the road would colapse under the weight of a tank. What would it do to the crew if a tank started tumbling down the side of a mountain?
C:0 Homer says DOH!
"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.
Tony.
C:0 Homer says DOH!
"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.
Tony.
There are a few ways to deal with tanks. One of them isnt standing around like a dumbass trying to fire rounds down the bore. That will only get you splattered by the mg's on the tank. What you can do if youre not equipped with any kind of AT weapons are allow the terrain to be your helper. Make roads impassable, channelize the tanks into soft or uneven ground. That could cause them to be stuck. Then hang around and wait for someone to stick their heads out. Or if you're in an urban environment, lure the tanks into narrow streets where they cant traverse their gun and bring the majority of their weapons to bear on you. The from above the vehicles you can throw improvised explosives, molotovs, etc. down on the vehicles. You can also go for mobility kills by jamming things between the road wheels and cause them to throw a track. All of these things require alot of planning and coordination. And if all this stuff fails, run screaming and yelling away and live to fight another day.
Edmund Rowe
New member
Jim Keenan: Whoops, I didn't mean to imply that US were fighting Russian tanks in WW2 
I think the Finns did the explosives-wrapped-around-the-main-gun trick.
Shooting exposed crew members: I think the USMC pioneered a new way to bring grief to exposed tankers (This isn't an immediate tank kill, but it's one way to really hamper a tank with rifle fire): First, shoot the DRIVER. On a good day with 1 shot, 1 kill, Boris the commanderski and Chekov the gunnerski may not have heard the shot over the noise of the engines, and maybe think Yuri the driverski is just sloppy and slipped the clutch. Meanwhile, Jimmy the Gyrene sniper might get another shot at another driverski or his buddy Johnny the Jarhead might shoot Boris the commanderski.
Getting the driver out of his seat is tough on most tanks. The crew might have to get out and pull the driver's body through his hatch. heh heh
of course now Jimmy and Johnny have more targets
Also, the Russian T-72 (and maybe the T-80?) series only has a crew of 3 (driver, gunner, commander) so taking out one of them really hampers operations.
...but planning to run like mad when tanks roll up is always a good plan!
Edmund
I think the Finns did the explosives-wrapped-around-the-main-gun trick.
Shooting exposed crew members: I think the USMC pioneered a new way to bring grief to exposed tankers (This isn't an immediate tank kill, but it's one way to really hamper a tank with rifle fire): First, shoot the DRIVER. On a good day with 1 shot, 1 kill, Boris the commanderski and Chekov the gunnerski may not have heard the shot over the noise of the engines, and maybe think Yuri the driverski is just sloppy and slipped the clutch. Meanwhile, Jimmy the Gyrene sniper might get another shot at another driverski or his buddy Johnny the Jarhead might shoot Boris the commanderski.
Getting the driver out of his seat is tough on most tanks. The crew might have to get out and pull the driver's body through his hatch. heh heh
of course now Jimmy and Johnny have more targets Also, the Russian T-72 (and maybe the T-80?) series only has a crew of 3 (driver, gunner, commander) so taking out one of them really hampers operations.
...but planning to run like mad when tanks roll up is always a good plan!
Edmund
When I went through Army OCS at Ft Benning in the early 70's we were trained in stopping tanks. We were told that once the tank is "buttoned up" the crew cannot see grunts very well and it is possible to place charges on the tank to disable it. I believed this until I was assigned to a tank Bn in Germany. When I discussed this with an old grizzled sgt in the Bn he laughed. It seems that tanks have grenade launchers on the side of the turret to fire smoke grenades to provide cover. In combat tankers would load White Phosporus grenades instead. Great anti infantry weapon as the WP grenade had a killing radius quite large and there are eight launchers on the tank. I don't think anyone is going to be hanging on the gun barrel with WP going off. I don't know the range of the grenade launchers but the old Sgt claimed it worked very well in Viet Nam.
By the way, the M1 Abrams has thermal sights that can pick up body heat from humans through smoke and dust. So much for tankers being blind when buttoned up.
Geoff Ross
By the way, the M1 Abrams has thermal sights that can pick up body heat from humans through smoke and dust. So much for tankers being blind when buttoned up.
Geoff Ross
Keith Rogan
New member
I won't comment on the rounds down the barrel approach to stopping tanks. Nor do I claim to be any kind of armor expert, but I do know that the Afghans killed hundreds if not thousands of Russian tanks without artillery and sometimes without even handheld anti-tank devices.
The basic tactic was to separate the tank from its accompanying infantry and then to immobilize it.
The way they immobilized tanks was to jam stuff into the treads, wire, rebarr, pipes,rocks, whatever. A tank without infantry around it can be approached (if you know what you're doing and are quick enough) with diversion or just experience in knowing the blind spots.
Once the tank was stopped, they'd stick explosive made from "recycled" Russian duds to the underside or just smother the outside of the tank with molotovs until the crew ran out of oxygen and bailed. Russian tanks, or at least some models of tank are not airtight and external fire will quickly deplete the crews air supply. Most Russians chose to shoot themselves inside the tank rather than jump out be captured by the Afghans.
I got this stuff from a former Russian soldier on a fish factory ship in the Bering sea - another story entirely.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
The basic tactic was to separate the tank from its accompanying infantry and then to immobilize it.
The way they immobilized tanks was to jam stuff into the treads, wire, rebarr, pipes,rocks, whatever. A tank without infantry around it can be approached (if you know what you're doing and are quick enough) with diversion or just experience in knowing the blind spots.
Once the tank was stopped, they'd stick explosive made from "recycled" Russian duds to the underside or just smother the outside of the tank with molotovs until the crew ran out of oxygen and bailed. Russian tanks, or at least some models of tank are not airtight and external fire will quickly deplete the crews air supply. Most Russians chose to shoot themselves inside the tank rather than jump out be captured by the Afghans.
I got this stuff from a former Russian soldier on a fish factory ship in the Bering sea - another story entirely.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
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