stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

[nate45]

People are making statements about reasonableness.

Is it reasonable to randomly detain and question someone who is engaged in legal activity?

You say well, the OP was carrying a handgun. Yes he was and it was perfectly legal to do so and he was breaking no law. Nor according to him was he doing anything out of the ordinary.

Is it reasonable to stop someone who is driving a car that isn't speeding, hasn't broken any other law and ask to see their license? What ever happened to probable cause?

Another thing, how many criminals open carry their handguns while buying ammunition? If the OP's story is correct the deputy acted wrongly, as well as foolishly by giving the OP his handgun back before he was certain he wasn't a criminal. Sounds like he is in desperate need of more training.

 

[armoredman]

It appears one individual is expressing a personal opinion as fact and unwilling to discuss it rationally. To answer in the same vein...whatever.

Glad I live in Free AZ. I have been asked about my sidearm when open carrying by law enforcement, usually what caliber and what ammo do I like. I do carry concealed mostly now, but that's my personal choice, not one to foist off on everyone else when open carry is both legal and unremarkable in this state.

 

[nate45]

Another thing I just thought of...what if the alleged deputy was correct and OP was a dangerous criminal?

Deputy: 'Excuse me, I'm a deputy lets see your CCW permit'

OP: 'Okay' he says, but instead draws handgun and starts firing.

The whole situation was handled wrong. I'll say it again, the alleged deputy needs more training, or better/different training as the case may be.

 

[ltc444]

The Officer was out of line.

The question is do you want to become a target for enforcement actions.

Local LEOs especially Sheriff Departments can make your life a nightmare if they want to.

I know this from personnal experience.

In a relatively rural county you have little recourse.

 

[Patriot86]

Sounds like a new officer, perhaps one who hasn't lived in WV for very long if he is that unfamiliar OC. I think proper procedure if he was detaining you, because basically that is what he did would have been to have a uniformed officer come and handle it. I think the cop overreacted and violated your rights.


To the guy who was cuffed like a criminal while the cop ran your gun, IMO you should have also filed a complaint. Typically if a cop cuffs you, he is going to arrest or at least "detain" you. I can understand disarming you but the cuffing was unnecessary, he doesn't cuff drivers he just pulls over. He cuffs drivers he suspects of doing something illegal.

Sadly this is why we HAVE guns in America, because without them by now in our 200+ year history we would probably resemble at best something like Belarus or Egypt without that last "check and balance" to the system.



On what yet some others have said about cops making your life a living hell: This is true. We have many many examples of this. A recent example was this woman who was a police dispatcher of some kind. Magically, someone starts writing her ex-husband dozens of bogus tickets. For places where his car wasn't, for things like parking too close to the curb, too far from the curb, wheels turned out away from the curb. Every frivolous thing you can imagine. Sometimes multiples per day. No one seems to have ever "solved" how this all happened but you connect the dots on your own. After several years of fighting the poor victim here finally got all of the tickets thrown out. If the cops or someone connected to the cops wants to make your life a living hell; they don't need firearms issues to do so.

 

[MLeake]

In post #1, the OP said no permit is required for open carry in WV. Not that i didn't believe him, but I cross-checked handgunlaw.us, and he is correct, with a caveat:

http://handgunlaw.us/states/westvirginia.pdf From the WV Attorney Generals “A Guide to Concealed Weapons Laws of West Virginia” (Page 4) http://www.wvago.gov/pdf/brochures/2009_gunbrochure.pdf
While West Virginia is an “Open Carry” state, only residents of West Virginia may do so

So it might have been reasonable for the deputy to ask to see some form of state issued ID. However, a permit was not required. A DL or other state ID should have been just fine.

The deputy was way out of line, and probably does not know his own state's laws on carry.

 

[MLeake]

highvel, if the OP were hispanic, or Asian, or Maori, how would I know he was not an illegal alien?

Sorry, LEOs don't just get to stop people and ask for their papers, unless there is reason to think persons are engaged in illegal activity.

The standard would be "Articulable Suspicion."

Having a gun, in a jurisdiction where having that gun is perfectly legal, does not make the standard.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

If I was in the store and someone was walking around with a gun on his hip I would be concerned.

^I would be concerned if he kept touching it or was behaving in a threatening manner. But just wearing a gun on his hip? I've seen it, I've done it, its my LEGAL right to.

If the LE saw an armed man how does he know he isn't a restricted person??

^Belief in this will result in a police state. Do we pull over random truck drivers to make sure they have a valid CDL? Do we stop random mothers to make sure they havent stolen the kids they've got? Do we stop every person wearing a turban because they might be a terrorist? In MY country, we are (supposed to be) innocent until proven guilty. You have to have a reason to believe I am restricted to bother me.

I do not believe I even have to identify myself in that situation. Am I breaking any laws? No? Then leave me alone! If you are going to detain me you'd better have a better reason than, "I just wanna check."

 

[alloy]

Do criminals open carry while Wal-Marting?

 

[Nathan]

The Officer was out of line.

The question is do you want to become a target for enforcement actions.

Local LEOs especially Sheriff Departments can make your life a nightmare if they want to.

I know this from personnal experience.

In a relatively rural county you have little recourse.

And this is the fundamental flaw in our current LE system in America. LE's run in a network above the law. That power can make us maginally safer or lead to the corruption we hear about regularly.

This said, I do highly respect the individual LEO's who do this relatively thankless jobs daily within the law. They should be commended for living under the law. I just wish the brotherhood part was not so strong that many look the other way in an unjustified arrest, harassing or shooting.

 

[brickeyee]

And this is the fundamental flaw in our current LE system in America. LE's run in a network above the law. That power can make us maginally safer or lead to the corruption we hear about regularly.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others

A proclamation by the pigs who control the farm in the novel :”Animal Farm”, by George Orwell.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When were his rights violated? I have the right to drive down the street, and if a cop pulls me over they are not violating my rights.

His rights were violated because the deputy had no justification to stop him. Police officers can't just stop people at random. If they want to pull over a vehicle, there has to be a reason. It may be speeding, it may be a burned out light, it may be that they ran the plate and the number belongs on a yellow Ford rather than a blue Toyota -- but they have to have a reason.

Same for people. In order for a police officer to conduct an investigative stop, he must have (according to U.S. Supreme Court dicta) "a reasonable suspicion, based on clearly articulable facts, that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed."

So, in a state where unlicensed open carry is legal, how can the simple fact of open carrying a handgun provide any "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" that there's a crime afoot? What's the crime? What are the clearly articulable facts?

Answer: There weren't any -- ergo, the deputy violated his civil rights by "investigating" him for a non-crime.

Well you have a permit for concealed carry but open carry. You can't blame a cop for giving you some attention when you could have otherwise avoided it.

The police enforce the law and are concerned with public safety. I would be more worried if an officer didn't stop and interview the only person in a public setting with a pistol. JMHO

See above comments directed toward comn-cents. The Op was not breaking any law, therefore the deputy had NO LEGAL RIGHT to stop and detain him. Whether or not open carry makes you uncomfortable, in WV it is legal. That's the law.

I am uncomfortable when a shaggy biker in raggedy leather on a Harley-Davidson with no mufflers is behind me or beside me in traffic. Does that mean I should be able to call a cop and have the biker detained? (Actually, that's not even a fair example, because the lack of a muffler would be justification.) The key point in your post is that the police "enforce" the law. They can't make it up. Open carry is legal in WV. The police cannot detain people arbitrarily for engaging in LEGAL behavior.

It seems that asking to see your CCW was fair.

Why, if a permit isn't needed to open carry? That's like asking someone standing next to a parked car in a parking lot to see their driver's license.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So it might have been reasonable for the deputy to ask to see some form of state issued ID. However, a permit was not required. A DL or other state ID should have been just fine.

You have a valid point -- to a point -- but I disagree with your conclusion.

Even if open carry is lawful only for WV residents, what gives the deputy any "clearly articulable facts" on which to base a "reasonable suspicion" that the OP might NOT have been a WV resident?

 

[Old Grump]

If I was in the store and someone was walking around with a gun on his hip I would be concerned.

If open carry is legal why would you be concerned? If you are afraid of people with guns why are you on a gun board?

OP has a legitimate complaint, he was being harassed by a deputy who did not like people carrying openly and he was trying to make it uncomfortable for him to discourage him from doing it again. It's moral morons like him that make laws necessary to reinforce our rights to bear arms. It's people like you that reinforce the attitudes of people like that deputy that he is doing the right thing even though he is wrong.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I carried a long gun into walmart. Wanted to see if a scope would fit it. No second looks.

Why should a properly holstered hand gun be any different?

 

[heyjoe]

in my opinion it was incredibly stupid for the officer to detain you for open carrying while he had a small child with him. all it takes is stopping the wrong person at the wrong time and tragedy. its very poor tactics.

 

[manta49]

This open carry and concealed carry is new to me. Why advertise you have a gun, does that not give an attacker an advantage. He knows you have a gun he is not going to give you a chance to use it. If you have it concealed then you can have the advantage.

 

[zxcvbob]

I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No"

IMHO, that's where you made your mistake. When he said "No" the first time, the conversation was over and you should have left without a word (or maybe just said "Good day" and left)

 

[Sparks1957]

If open carry is legal why would you be concerned? If you are afraid of people with guns why are you on a gun board?

I agree with the old grump on that point.

However, whatever the legalities of this case, I think it does point out some of the issues associated with open-carry in a society where the majority of people don't carry, and many people associate carrying guns with potential criminal/sociopathic behavior.

Concealed carry simply avoids all the panic and misunderstanding some people experience when "a man with a gun" is around, and gives a tactical advantage to the carrier where a weapon might be needed.

Just because someone can open-carry, doesn't always mean it's a good idea to do so. Just my opinion.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Just because someone can open-carry, doesn't always mean it's a good idea to do so. Just my opinion.

That's a debate that won't be settled in what's left of my lifetime, but it's a different question. The question for THIS thread is whether or not the deputy had a right to do what he did, and I think the answer pretty clearly is, "No, he did not."