Stoner or HK?

I've had both of these, and I'd go with the HK for one basic reason: it works. My SR25 didn't.

Sure the SR25 shot well, around 3/4", sometimes better, but it couldn't cycle through an entire magazine to save your life. Mine was an early gun, so it may have been subject to some toothing troubles, but nevertheless, my HKs ALWAYS worked. The SR25 didn't.
 
Who makes the "Stoner", obviously not Gene. He's taking a dirt nap, last I checked. Did somebody buy his name like Armalite was bought by SA?

I get a little ticked with all these guys who buy a name and then expect the public to be fooled into thinking their getting the "real thing". Fume, rant, fuss... :)

I got it! I'll copyright "Studebaker" then I can produce my own automobile, a genuine Stude! Wait a minute... no that won't work!

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
 
Because I belong to the HK cult, I am going to nit-pick Paul Revere's post about the rifle that Billy Zane used in the movie "Sniper". The rifle used was accually an HK SR9(TC) with an HK91 standard forearm and bipod, not a PSG-1. Most folks wouldn't know the difference, nor care, I guess, but those of us worshipping at the alter of the 91 do. (And WE care! ;))

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May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

~Blades~
 
The PSG-1 is way over priced for it's actual effectiveness. Now it does honestly pain me to say anything negative about HK, but for the sniper/countersniper role, one should look to a good boltaction. Thr Remminton 700 is about perfect, and you'll save several thousand dollars. For most anything else jump all over the HK's.
 
The Sr25 is a much more accurate rifle than the HK. It is not uncommon for one to shoot ½ MOA. For you lovers of the M1A I will say show me a 1moa gun and I will tell you to shoot 250 rounds and show me it's still a 1 MOA rifle. Its not hard to make one shoot 1 MOA its hard to keep them shooting I MOA that's why the Military has a van with armors attend every match they participate in. The HK is a fine battle rifle but the hammer forged and laser straightened barrels weren't meant for accuracy.
 
BigG: Before his untimely death, Gene Stoner actively assisted Reed Knight (Knight's Armament Company/Knight's Manufacturing Company) in the development of the SR25 rifle and other projects.

The SR25 is more a Stoner rifle than the Browning HiPower is a Browning pistol. After all, by your own terms, J.M. Browning was taking a 'dirt nap' at the time the GP35 design was finalized. A Saive HiPower just doesn't have the same ring, does it? ;)
 
Big G, Gene worked with Reed Knight the last 6 or 8 years of his life. The Sr25 is one hundred percent Stoner. They had a mag problem when they first came out and it gave the rifle a bad name but that has long since been taken care of. Gene spent the last three years of his life working on the Semi 50 But didn't get the bugs out before he died and no one has since.
 
Big G, Gene worked with Reed Knight the last 6 or 8 years of his life. The Sr25 is one hundred percent Stoner. They had a mag problem when they first came out and it gave the rifle a bad name but that has long since been taken care of. Gene spent the last three years of his life working on the Semi 50 But didn't get the bugs out before he died and no one has since.
 
That's been my experience with AR pattern guns: always some rationalization why it won't work when it should. For what the SR25 costs, you're better off buying a HK91 and an M700. Less headaches that way.

This has strayed a bit from the topic. Really the SR25 and HK91 aren't directly comparable. The SR25 was never meant to be a battle rifle. The HK91 isn't really a precision rifle, though it comes close. Despite the reliability issues with the SR25, you have to look at what you really want from the gun. Pure accuracy or reliability?
 
You're right. If you want reliability, don't use an AR action. Well, except for the 9mm AR SMG, because it uses a simplified heavy bolt and is operated via blowback.
 
Thanks for the info Gale and Daniel!

Daniel, I hate to tell you this, but JMB built the original HP, it looked like with a file, quite a bit before Mr. Saive got involved. The Browning HP was originally intended to be striker fired with a single stack mag. Check Handguns of the World by Ezell for more info. Saive built the double stack mag, IIRC.

The reason JMB built the HP was he was asked to by FN because they wanted something like the Colt 45 which Browning had assigned the patents to Colt. I am reasonably sure that JMB would never have built the HP on his own after having given the world the 1911, especially in the 9mm Luger caliber. He developed three 9mm cartridges of his own, 380 ACP and 9mm Browning Long, both adapted to lighter pocket weapons and the 38 ACP, a little more oomph, but alas, not a 45!

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
 
Gale is right about the M1A not holding up after a while. Every year they have to be serviced which includes rebedding. Because they're high maintenance, the Armed Forces have given up on trying to make it into a match rifle. Anywhere the team when, a team of armorers with all their equipment had to follow. They are good guns, but you have to keep working on them to keep them that way.

If I were target shooting/sharpshooting, I'd go with the Stoner. If I were going for a battle rifle, I'd go HK. Tough, reliable, and besides, at $30 a pop, the magazines are much more affordable.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
BigG: Yes, I've seen pictures of Browning's prototype pistols which led to the HiPower. But you must admit that the final 1935 design didn't have much left over from those 1922/23 prototypes either.

Ezell's account doesn't jibe with FN or Browning. My understanding of the time line is that FN received a request for a 15rd 9x19mm pistol from the French. Saive built the prototype high capacity magazines, and then J.M. Browning designed a pistol around the magazines. Ed Browning was responsible for most of the machine work on these prototypes. The 15rd Browning prototype pistols should be at the Browning Museum in Utah, if I'm not mistaken.

Hmm, we're getting off track for the Rifle section...perhaps we should take this over to Handguns? ;)
 
cdf - The PERFECT bolt action sniper/countersniper rifle is the Dakota Longbow.
.338 Laupa Magnum being the #1 choice for Long Range shooting.

Funny - all this clamour about reliability issues with ARs. I had some. It was due to a bad magazine. Once I localized and repaired (new spring) the bad mag - My Bushmaster is good as gold. ;)


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
Hmm, if you have $5K for the thing, sure. The Sako TRG41 is a better rifle and a better deal, though they are VERY scarce. A somewhat less pricey alternative would be a Remington 40X in .300UM. Unfortunately, it's not a repeater, and the Remington Custom Shop is SLOOOOOOWWWW. Nevertheless, ballistically, it's as good or better than the .338 Lapua and somewhat cheaper to shoot.
 
The Longbow is very aprovable...But I don't think anyone's ever seen a duece and a half loaded with crates of ammunition for it. I preffer more common, ie military cartridges. If the DoD adopted the longbow for our scout/snipers,(or GPMGs)I'd be getting one right quick. As to AR reliability, I'm not going to rehash this with you. You know it's not the most reliable weapon out there. To bad about the mag. Try Orlites. Or a Kalashnokov, or FAL, or HK, or AR18, or Bushmaster M17, or FAMAS, or SA80, etc, etc
 
Jeeze, a guy is gone a few days and things really start rolling. Yes the M1A requires periodic retuning to maintain match accuracy but it is easier (to me) to shoot accurately (better trigger and ergonomics) than the HK. It is also better suited to the battle rifle role in my humble opinion. George, I agree with your argument for the Uzi, can't comment on the Beretta, only fired it once. I will say that it had an unmatched balance while firing but I would like to shoot it more before I pass judgment. Personally I like the Colt smg, far better human engineering and a bolt hold open device as well. Personally I think the bulk of the problems people have with the AR pattern rifles is directly related to non standard parts. With all those manufacturers turning out parts in an attempt to keep up with demand quality falls behind. Never once did I have a problem with any of my issue M-16s.
 
While I am no expert by any means, I have had my origional German HK91 for about 10 years. I bought the gun used (It was manufactured in the late 70's) I have not had a serious problem with the weapon. In my 10 years with the gun I have fired at least 10,000 rounds through it. I have ran it through two shooting school, one at Mid South and one of Awerbuck's courses. I have purposely not cleaned it during the courses in between days, and I have not had a problem with it jamming. I love it! But if it dosen't feel right in your hands...get something else.
 
Jake. Yeah, REMF don't have to shoot very often. Colt SMG is good though. I sure wouldn't mind having one. Match it up with some quality hotloads and add a compensator. M14 better than HK? I think that may qualify as herrisy or Satanism, or something like that. I hope you weren't intinding to compare an M21 to a PSG-1. Even a tuned and accurised old G3 is more desirable than whatever M14 variant. Well, who cares. The M40 is top pick nonetheless.
 
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