leadcounsel
Moderator
Is it a good sign that the stimulus package doesn't have any anti-gun ornaments... There are a lot of pet projects, and I think it's a good sign that there are no anti-gun measures.
Stimulus package has no anti-gun laws...
- Thread starter leadcounsel
- Start date
Leadcouncil, I was about to post a question similar to yours. You are saying that the bill contains no anti-gun measures. On the way in this morning someone called into a talk show ranting about the stimulus package including a 5 cent tax per round charged to the manufacture as well as some other stuff relating to serializing ammunition.
I generally take everything on talk radio with a few grains of salt, so I am curious if there is any truth to this? Does anyone know for sure if this is included or not? I have spent the past few mins searching the net and can not find anything regarding it. Are you sure that there is no firearms related stuff in the package? I am going to continue to research but as of now it looks like you are correct. As to whether that's a good sign that its not included, it's hard to say.
It would be hard to push a gun law as stimulus, but I am sure it will come up eventually stuck in some different package. I challenge all of us to stay alert, read and research and stay informed so that we can attempt to cut off any anti 2nd amendment issues before they are passed.
I generally take everything on talk radio with a few grains of salt, so I am curious if there is any truth to this? Does anyone know for sure if this is included or not? I have spent the past few mins searching the net and can not find anything regarding it. Are you sure that there is no firearms related stuff in the package? I am going to continue to research but as of now it looks like you are correct. As to whether that's a good sign that its not included, it's hard to say.
It would be hard to push a gun law as stimulus, but I am sure it will come up eventually stuck in some different package. I challenge all of us to stay alert, read and research and stay informed so that we can attempt to cut off any anti 2nd amendment issues before they are passed.
rdalrymple
Inactive
I heard the same thing jclayto did, same caller I assume. I too have searched and cannot connect the stimulus plan to ammunition tracing, but this caller is a regular and is respected in regard to his knowledge of gun issues.
If he said it, and he did, I would normally be inclined to believe it. I sure wish I could find confirmation, one way or the other.
If he said it, and he did, I would normally be inclined to believe it. I sure wish I could find confirmation, one way or the other.
I fogot to add, I did find that there is a 4.19 billion dollar earmark for neighborhood stabilization. It appears this money will go to the fine folks over at ACORN, remember them from the campaign days?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/fir...eaders-raise-concerns-acorn-stimulus-dollars/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/fir...eaders-raise-concerns-acorn-stimulus-dollars/
H.R. 1 - American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009; this is the January 30 2009 version of the bill as amended by the Senate. The bill does not contain the word "ammunition" and only contains the word "firearm" once (in a reference to ATF funding).
The original version passed by the House did not contain either of the words "ammunition" or "firearm."
The original version passed by the House did not contain either of the words "ammunition" or "firearm."
Local radio talk show had a Mrs. Simone (I think) from NRA on today addressing this. She stated that there was no gun or ammo tax or bullet serialization legislation in this. I haven't read it, but I'm gonna say that if it was there, the NRA probably would have found it.
Just don't let your guard down.
Just don't let your guard down.
ReadyOnTheRight
New member
I heard a talk show host here in Minnesota this morning say that the Pork Steamroller Stimulus bill contained provisions that required transfer of ALL firearms to go through FFL dealers - nationwide. I have not heard it anywhere else.
I DID receive the following from GOA. Worth noting since a federal medical database can certainly be full of unintended consequences:
Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org
"HR 1 is about more than just pork. Millions of gun owners stand to
lose their gun rights without any due process." -- Larry Pratt, GOA
Executive Director
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
The Obama administration is putting a lot of pressure on Congress to
slam through the most recent $800+ billion bailout package before anyone
has an opportunity to read it.
The Obama administration intones that the details are unimportant. The
only thing that matters is the "bigness." And, by shipping a bill of
nearly $900 billion (plus interest) to our children and grandchildren,
the package is really, really big -- bigger, in fact, than the budget of
our entire government for the first 170 years of our country's
existence.
But now that some of the details are finally starting to leak out of
Washington, Gun Owners -- and a lot of other analysts -- are beginning
to look at the fine print. And some of it is particularly scary.
Of particular concern to gun owners are sections 13101 through 13434 of
HR 1, which would set up the infrastructure to computerize the medical
records of ALL AMERICANS in a government-coordinated database.
True, the bill doesn't mandate that the data will be in a giant computer
under the Oval Office. But it does mandate that your medical records be
reduced to a computerized form which is available to it in a second.
This it would do by establishing a National Coordinator for Health
Information Technology -- tasked with, among other things, "providing
information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of
care."
It should be scary enough that a government bureaucrat is directed by
statute to try to influence your doctor's decisions with respect to your
medical care.
But of even greater concern to gun owners is the fact that a
government-coordinated database (which government can freely access)
will now contain all records of government-provided and private
psychiatric treatment -- including, in particular, the drugs which were
prescribed.
Remember last year's "NICS Improvement Act" -- otherwise known as the
Veterans Disarmament Act? This law codified ATF's attempts to make you
a prohibited person on the basis of a government psychiatrist's finding
that you are a "danger" -- without a finding by any court. Well,
roughly 150,000 battle-scarred veterans have already been unfairly
stripped of their gun rights by the government.
But people who, as kids, were diagnosed with Attention Deficit
Disorder... or seniors with Alzheimer's... or police with Post-Traumatic
Stress Disorder... or people who are now theoretically covered by the
new law... these people have, generally, not suffered the consequences
of its sanctions -- YET. And the chief reason is that their records are
not easily available to the government in a central, easily retrievable,
computerized form.
The bailout bill would change all of that. It would push increasingly
hard to force your private psychiatrist or government-sanctioned
psychiatrist to turn over your psychiatric records to a massive
database. This would be mandated immediately if your doctor does
business with the government.
This would supposedly save Medicare money in connection with medical
treatment. And, the sponsors insist, they would work very hard to
protect your privacy.
But this turns the concept of "privacy" on its head. The privacy which
is MOST important is privacy from the prying eyes of government -- not
privacy of government data against the prying eyes of others. After
all, many government data bases have been hacked in recent years, with
mountains of information stolen.
So, once the government has access to these computerized psychiatric
records, the stage will be set for using that database to take away the
gun rights of those with Alzheimer's, those with ADD, and those with
PTSD.
ACTION: Write your two senators. Urge them to vote against the bailout
bill (HR 1) until it is stripped of provisions which would turn your
psychiatric records over to a central government-coordinated database
against your will -- without you getting your day in court.
You can go to the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm to send your Senators the
pre-written e-mail message below.
----- Prewritten Letter -----
Dear Senator:
I am particularly concerned about sections 13101 through 13434 of the
new bailout bill (HR 1). These sections would set up the infrastructure
to computerize the medical records of ALL AMERICANS in a
government-coordinated database, including psychiatric records.
It is scary enough that a government bureaucrat is directed by statute
to try to influence my doctor's decisions with respect to my medical
care.
But of even greater concern to gun owners is the fact that a
government-coordinated database will now contain all records of
government-provided and private psychiatric treatment.
Last year's "NICS Improvement Act" codified ATF's attempts to make a
person a prohibited person on the basis of a government psychiatrist's
finding that he is a "danger" -- without a finding by any court. Well,
roughly 150,000 battle-scarred veterans have already been unfairly
stripped of their gun rights by the government.
Now, this new government-coordinated database threatens the gun rights
of people who, as kids, were diagnosed with Attention Deficit
Disorder... seniors with Alzheimer's... police with Post-Traumatic
Stress Disorder... and many other law-abiding Americans.
Please vote against cloture on HR 1 until this provision is removed.
Sincerely,
****************************
I DID receive the following from GOA. Worth noting since a federal medical database can certainly be full of unintended consequences:
Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org
"HR 1 is about more than just pork. Millions of gun owners stand to
lose their gun rights without any due process." -- Larry Pratt, GOA
Executive Director
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
The Obama administration is putting a lot of pressure on Congress to
slam through the most recent $800+ billion bailout package before anyone
has an opportunity to read it.
The Obama administration intones that the details are unimportant. The
only thing that matters is the "bigness." And, by shipping a bill of
nearly $900 billion (plus interest) to our children and grandchildren,
the package is really, really big -- bigger, in fact, than the budget of
our entire government for the first 170 years of our country's
existence.
But now that some of the details are finally starting to leak out of
Washington, Gun Owners -- and a lot of other analysts -- are beginning
to look at the fine print. And some of it is particularly scary.
Of particular concern to gun owners are sections 13101 through 13434 of
HR 1, which would set up the infrastructure to computerize the medical
records of ALL AMERICANS in a government-coordinated database.
True, the bill doesn't mandate that the data will be in a giant computer
under the Oval Office. But it does mandate that your medical records be
reduced to a computerized form which is available to it in a second.
This it would do by establishing a National Coordinator for Health
Information Technology -- tasked with, among other things, "providing
information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of
care."
It should be scary enough that a government bureaucrat is directed by
statute to try to influence your doctor's decisions with respect to your
medical care.
But of even greater concern to gun owners is the fact that a
government-coordinated database (which government can freely access)
will now contain all records of government-provided and private
psychiatric treatment -- including, in particular, the drugs which were
prescribed.
Remember last year's "NICS Improvement Act" -- otherwise known as the
Veterans Disarmament Act? This law codified ATF's attempts to make you
a prohibited person on the basis of a government psychiatrist's finding
that you are a "danger" -- without a finding by any court. Well,
roughly 150,000 battle-scarred veterans have already been unfairly
stripped of their gun rights by the government.
But people who, as kids, were diagnosed with Attention Deficit
Disorder... or seniors with Alzheimer's... or police with Post-Traumatic
Stress Disorder... or people who are now theoretically covered by the
new law... these people have, generally, not suffered the consequences
of its sanctions -- YET. And the chief reason is that their records are
not easily available to the government in a central, easily retrievable,
computerized form.
The bailout bill would change all of that. It would push increasingly
hard to force your private psychiatrist or government-sanctioned
psychiatrist to turn over your psychiatric records to a massive
database. This would be mandated immediately if your doctor does
business with the government.
This would supposedly save Medicare money in connection with medical
treatment. And, the sponsors insist, they would work very hard to
protect your privacy.
But this turns the concept of "privacy" on its head. The privacy which
is MOST important is privacy from the prying eyes of government -- not
privacy of government data against the prying eyes of others. After
all, many government data bases have been hacked in recent years, with
mountains of information stolen.
So, once the government has access to these computerized psychiatric
records, the stage will be set for using that database to take away the
gun rights of those with Alzheimer's, those with ADD, and those with
PTSD.
ACTION: Write your two senators. Urge them to vote against the bailout
bill (HR 1) until it is stripped of provisions which would turn your
psychiatric records over to a central government-coordinated database
against your will -- without you getting your day in court.
You can go to the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm to send your Senators the
pre-written e-mail message below.
----- Prewritten Letter -----
Dear Senator:
I am particularly concerned about sections 13101 through 13434 of the
new bailout bill (HR 1). These sections would set up the infrastructure
to computerize the medical records of ALL AMERICANS in a
government-coordinated database, including psychiatric records.
It is scary enough that a government bureaucrat is directed by statute
to try to influence my doctor's decisions with respect to my medical
care.
But of even greater concern to gun owners is the fact that a
government-coordinated database will now contain all records of
government-provided and private psychiatric treatment.
Last year's "NICS Improvement Act" codified ATF's attempts to make a
person a prohibited person on the basis of a government psychiatrist's
finding that he is a "danger" -- without a finding by any court. Well,
roughly 150,000 battle-scarred veterans have already been unfairly
stripped of their gun rights by the government.
Now, this new government-coordinated database threatens the gun rights
of people who, as kids, were diagnosed with Attention Deficit
Disorder... seniors with Alzheimer's... police with Post-Traumatic
Stress Disorder... and many other law-abiding Americans.
Please vote against cloture on HR 1 until this provision is removed.
Sincerely,
****************************
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Not one of GOAs better legislative analyses in my opinion. I think they are trying to stretch a justified concern over a centralized medical database into a "gun control" argument because they feel the issue is important, even though it has no real impact on gun control. The fact that they mischaracterized (again) The NICS Improvement Act to make the point is just icing on the cake.
First off, yes, I completely read this stuff - raw from the horse's mouth. I freely admit that I am a total nerd.
That said, this legalese makes even me want to
The NICS Improvement Act of 2007 (HR2640) that the Gun Owners of America referenced was introduced on January 5, 2007 by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy [D, NY] and became law on 1/8/2008. It is a bill, "to improve the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and for other purposes." It consists of three titles and amended the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 (18 U.S.C. 922 note - for those that want to read it - it's not very long.). Basically, it forced the states to "make electronically available to the Attorney General records relevant to a determination of whether a person is disqualified from possessing or receiving a firearm..." This "releveant information" is information such as misdeameanor crimes of domestic violence, adjudicated mental defectives, or those committed to a mental institution. Notice, your possible relationship with any psychiatrist is left in tact. Thanks to the NRA lobbying, this bill protects veterans designated to have psychological conditions and those successfully treated for mental illness. Reading the bill, I could not find any expansion of the "mental defective" definition, as some suggest. The bill clearly defines such by referring back to section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code just like every other piece of legislation requiring the definition.
Now, for the current legislation (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009). While there are medical privacy concerns, I simply cannot connect the "Health Information Technology Implementation" (as the bill puts it) to stripping gun rights. Not once does the bill mention NICS, background checks, or guns. Section 3009 clearly states that the bill will, "take into account the requirements of HIPAA privacy and security law." Some are confusing this database with NICS. The two are completely separate.
In short, I believe the Gun Owners of America article to have some accurate information, along with voicing valid privacy concerns; however, I find the article to have exaggerated conclusions and some misleading information:
True. President Obama has billed the "American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" as his top priority. He has actively urged the House and Senate to pass it in a timely manner.
True. The bill pretty much takes your currently available health information and digitizes it. There are valid privacy concerns here (especially regarding the searchability of the database), IMHO. That said, Section 3009 clearly states that the bill will, "take into account the requirements of HIPAA privacy and security law." The above quote is misleading because the information is not specific to gun owners and is separate from the NICS system and any state or federal background checking system/database.
False. Thanks to the NRA lobbying, HR2640 protects veterans designated to have psychological conditions and those successfully treated for mental illness. Reading the bill, I could not find any expansion of the "mental defective" definition as some suggest. The bill clearly defines such by referring back to section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code.
Misleading and/or false. Misleading: I don't know how the writer of the article was able to conclude that sanctions would follow the act of digitizing previously-existing records. I could not find any information suggesting this. False: Again, veterans with PTSD are exempt thanks to the NRA's lobbying efforts on HR2640. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 has no such provision and will not modify the NICS system or HIPAA laws.
False. The NICS database is completely separate, and HIPAA laws remain unchanged.
I'm as wary about this as the next guy. There are valid privacy concerns and legitimate criticism for putting this in a "stimulus bill;" however, there is exaggeration in the article.
Again, I made sure to only use primary sources presented from "non-biased" sources. I hope this "fact checking" helped somebody.
That said, this legalese makes even me want to
The NICS Improvement Act of 2007 (HR2640) that the Gun Owners of America referenced was introduced on January 5, 2007 by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy [D, NY] and became law on 1/8/2008. It is a bill, "to improve the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and for other purposes." It consists of three titles and amended the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 (18 U.S.C. 922 note - for those that want to read it - it's not very long.). Basically, it forced the states to "make electronically available to the Attorney General records relevant to a determination of whether a person is disqualified from possessing or receiving a firearm..." This "releveant information" is information such as misdeameanor crimes of domestic violence, adjudicated mental defectives, or those committed to a mental institution. Notice, your possible relationship with any psychiatrist is left in tact. Thanks to the NRA lobbying, this bill protects veterans designated to have psychological conditions and those successfully treated for mental illness. Reading the bill, I could not find any expansion of the "mental defective" definition, as some suggest. The bill clearly defines such by referring back to section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code just like every other piece of legislation requiring the definition.
Now, for the current legislation (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009). While there are medical privacy concerns, I simply cannot connect the "Health Information Technology Implementation" (as the bill puts it) to stripping gun rights. Not once does the bill mention NICS, background checks, or guns. Section 3009 clearly states that the bill will, "take into account the requirements of HIPAA privacy and security law." Some are confusing this database with NICS. The two are completely separate.
In short, I believe the Gun Owners of America article to have some accurate information, along with voicing valid privacy concerns; however, I find the article to have exaggerated conclusions and some misleading information:
True. President Obama has billed the "American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" as his top priority. He has actively urged the House and Senate to pass it in a timely manner.
True. The bill pretty much takes your currently available health information and digitizes it. There are valid privacy concerns here (especially regarding the searchability of the database), IMHO. That said, Section 3009 clearly states that the bill will, "take into account the requirements of HIPAA privacy and security law." The above quote is misleading because the information is not specific to gun owners and is separate from the NICS system and any state or federal background checking system/database.
False. Thanks to the NRA lobbying, HR2640 protects veterans designated to have psychological conditions and those successfully treated for mental illness. Reading the bill, I could not find any expansion of the "mental defective" definition as some suggest. The bill clearly defines such by referring back to section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code.
Misleading and/or false. Misleading: I don't know how the writer of the article was able to conclude that sanctions would follow the act of digitizing previously-existing records. I could not find any information suggesting this. False: Again, veterans with PTSD are exempt thanks to the NRA's lobbying efforts on HR2640. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 has no such provision and will not modify the NICS system or HIPAA laws.
False. The NICS database is completely separate, and HIPAA laws remain unchanged.
I'm as wary about this as the next guy. There are valid privacy concerns and legitimate criticism for putting this in a "stimulus bill;" however, there is exaggeration in the article.
Again, I made sure to only use primary sources presented from "non-biased" sources. I hope this "fact checking" helped somebody.
ThorntonMelon
New member
ReadyOnTheRight is dead on...there may not be any direct anti-gun legislation in the bill, but this healthcare record-keeping proposal will be used to prohibit as many people as possible from owning guns by declaring them 'unfit' without due process.
Another possible hidden anti gun provission
I was listening to either Mark Levin or the Laura Ingrahm show last night and Anne Coulter was a guest caller. She said something about a provision in the stimulus bill that turned some highway into a national park area which therefore made it a "no gun zone"
I haven't been able to find anything else on this, has anybody else heard of it?
the highway was somewhere in Virginia and some other state. I know it's vague but that's kind of the point.
I was listening to either Mark Levin or the Laura Ingrahm show last night and Anne Coulter was a guest caller. She said something about a provision in the stimulus bill that turned some highway into a national park area which therefore made it a "no gun zone"
I haven't been able to find anything else on this, has anybody else heard of it?
the highway was somewhere in Virginia and some other state. I know it's vague but that's kind of the point.
Anti-gun Land Bill On The Move
You might want to consider signing up for GOA's email alerts. They'll keep you on top of things pretty well.
Wow, so I'm I little confused as to what to think. You would have thought the NRA would have said something about this but instead they sent this out:
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=4430
It almost seems like they either didn't do their research and find this other bill or are trying to divert attention away from it. Either way it's not good.
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=4430
It almost seems like they either didn't do their research and find this other bill or are trying to divert attention away from it. Either way it's not good.
Lets not be confused. Although there may not be something written outright about restricting guns/ammo in this legislation, before things are done and if the anti-gun political society history holds true, there will be some political moron try to use his/her interpretation of something in it to manipulate our 2nd amendment rights
. Bound to happen.
. Bound to happen.