Guns werent restricted to a ruling class, they were available to anyone who could acquire them. They were just excedingly difficult to find as the skills to make them were long lost. What was exclusive to the class of gunslingers was the training and discipline to put them to such effective use.
Stephen King's Gunslinger?
- Thread starter MeekAndMild
- Start date
It looks like I managed to leave for work without taking the closing action in this thread. I think we'll just leave it open since we are having a serious discussion about 2nd Amendment and "what if ...".
And since it is a second amendment/civil liberties discussion, we need to move to L&P. We ARE going to continue to relate this to the current day situation ... aren't we?
And since it is a second amendment/civil liberties discussion, we need to move to L&P. We ARE going to continue to relate this to the current day situation ... aren't we?
spacemanspiff
New member
Fine! If you insist, we'll keep in on topic! 
Given the fact that quality gunsmiths are already in short supply across the nation, and that in some areas of the globe, there are none who can service any firearms, it is entirely plausible that at some point in the future, in the aftermath of some catastrophical event, our guns may find themselves without anyone with the 'know-how' to keep them operational.
Sure, we could improvise, teach ourselves, but that is relying on having the raw materials and machinery on hand.
Would you know how to make a new barrel? Could you get behind a CNC machine and make your own reciever or action? Can you make your own gunpowder? Primers?
Given the fact that quality gunsmiths are already in short supply across the nation, and that in some areas of the globe, there are none who can service any firearms, it is entirely plausible that at some point in the future, in the aftermath of some catastrophical event, our guns may find themselves without anyone with the 'know-how' to keep them operational.
Sure, we could improvise, teach ourselves, but that is relying on having the raw materials and machinery on hand.
Would you know how to make a new barrel? Could you get behind a CNC machine and make your own reciever or action? Can you make your own gunpowder? Primers?
Until the new United States guaranteed the people's right to keep and bear arms and not infringe on that right... Guns were restricted to the ruling classes of all other countries...
The Colonists of America required guns to survive and so the ruling king and ruling class sort of looked the other way...
Back home in the British Empire ONLY those in favor with the Crown were free to keep and bear swords, battle axes, pikes, spears and Bows with arrows.
The lower classes were to keep arms as a militia and bear them ONLY when called upon by the Gentleman's class, Officers, Landlord's and Royalty.
The law said they could, but the upper classes were the only ones who could, in fact, carry weapons openly in public...
Armed masses are the greatest threat to ALL governments because ALLforms of government are required by numbers to operate by leave of the people.
And by depriving the people of weapons, and undermining their leaders, ALL governments secure for themselves the power to operate independent of the will of the people.
A very intelligent and thoughtful man once said something like;
"As soon as a man recieves a little authority... he immediately begins to excercise un-righteous dominion."
Liberals are the "best friends" of governing powers because the more dependent the people are on the government for food, water, shelter, and other sustenance... the easier for the "Gov'mint" to excercise power over them.
Gun ownership is simply one more "check and balance" that was incorporated into US Constitutional Law.
What does this have to do with the thread subject...?
Absolutely everything!
I agree with the assumption that firearms were in short supply, and to a greater extent, the knowledge and ability to use them effectively. I never got the feeling that Roland and his ilk were "The Haves."
As well as he writes, SK has never been that well-informed when it comes to firearms. If you've read a lot of his other stuff, you know what I mean. Like most writers, there are certain parts that you sort of gloss over, and bs your way through it.
The notion that the last firearms on earth (with available ammo at that) are colt .45s is a little dubious to say the least.
Btw, the first of the series is still one of my faves of all time.
As well as he writes, SK has never been that well-informed when it comes to firearms. If you've read a lot of his other stuff, you know what I mean. Like most writers, there are certain parts that you sort of gloss over, and bs your way through it.
The notion that the last firearms on earth (with available ammo at that) are colt .45s is a little dubious to say the least.
Btw, the first of the series is still one of my faves of all time.
Mad Martigan
New member
I'm pretty sure they were. Gunslingers were elite citizens of Gilead.
Guns are restricted to a 'class' in this country
That was as I understand it the real reason for outlawing 'saturday night specials' in the late 60's. To get them out of the hands of poor black people. Is not the 'license' for automatic weapons and other high end guns just a tax? So the wealthier you are the 'better' guns you can have. Gun control and laws have always been about controling the masses and not crime... isn't the point that criminals don't obey the law so gun laws are useless a constant thread on these list?
As for the gunslinger books... the first three I liked then it got way to hard to keep up with.
That was as I understand it the real reason for outlawing 'saturday night specials' in the late 60's. To get them out of the hands of poor black people. Is not the 'license' for automatic weapons and other high end guns just a tax? So the wealthier you are the 'better' guns you can have. Gun control and laws have always been about controling the masses and not crime... isn't the point that criminals don't obey the law so gun laws are useless a constant thread on these list?
As for the gunslinger books... the first three I liked then it got way to hard to keep up with.
Mad Martigan
New member
Everybody quits at the 3rd book. That's all I see on Ebay, "Books 1-3!, "Set of 1,2, and 3." Now I only need the last two. 
MeekAndMild
New member
Class control was the unstated purpose of many other laws. That is also one of the reasons that, despite their desire to have a bigger voter pool, no one among the DNC elite seems very enthusiastic about pardoning the huge mass of Black felons which has grown since the 60's.
I seem to recall every couple of years a wave of attempts in Congress to include either pistols or semiautomatic rifles in the NFA registry.
Mad Martigan
You are correct, the gunslingers were the rulers of Gilead. I think the point was that though they did have the guns, it was not simply because they denied them to the non-ruling class, but instead due to the lack of guns or knowledge to make guns.
(Why is discussing the guns and their distribution in a book not worthy to be discussed? Genuinely don't understand, not trying to be sarcastic. Is it just a "wrong forum" kind of thing?)
You are correct, the gunslingers were the rulers of Gilead. I think the point was that though they did have the guns, it was not simply because they denied them to the non-ruling class, but instead due to the lack of guns or knowledge to make guns.
(Why is discussing the guns and their distribution in a book not worthy to be discussed? Genuinely don't understand, not trying to be sarcastic. Is it just a "wrong forum" kind of thing?)
I haven't read these books
But I'll look them up now.
As for the premise of guns being restricted to the "ruling class", there are historical precedents. Just look at feudal Japan. Weapons were restricted to the Samurai class. Anyone found in posession of a weapon, other than a Samurai was immediately put to death.
I don't know how they considered the sword makers (honorary Samurai perhaps?), as I would expect them to be considered artisan/merchant class. Unfortunately I don't know quite enough Japanese history to be able to say for sure.
But I'll look them up now.
As for the premise of guns being restricted to the "ruling class", there are historical precedents. Just look at feudal Japan. Weapons were restricted to the Samurai class. Anyone found in posession of a weapon, other than a Samurai was immediately put to death.
I don't know how they considered the sword makers (honorary Samurai perhaps?), as I would expect them to be considered artisan/merchant class. Unfortunately I don't know quite enough Japanese history to be able to say for sure.
Jake's gun was an auto, it seems like it was a .40s&w, but my memory is a litle faulty. I will look it up. anyone interested in TDT might check www.thedarktower.net and log into the forums there.
azredhawk44
Moderator
I love these books, but King doesn't know jack about guns.
He talks about Enrico Balazar's "mammoth" 357magnum barrel as if it dwarfs those of Roland's "winchester" 45's.
Jake has a Ruger 44 automatic.
In book 6, before <somebody> dies, the group finds a cache of AR-15's and King says they are fully automatic (or somehow confuses them with M16's).
You might write it all off as a parallel evolution of the gun industry in Eddie, Jake, Roland and Susannah's dimensions of existence rather than our own, except for that bit about Balazar's "mammoth" 357 magnum.
I think the whole premise of the evolution of an American caste system is valid, though. Gun culture is shrinking horizontally, but stretching vertically. Fewer total people own more guns. For example... I own 13 guns. How many people 100 years ago owned 13 guns? But I bet there were 10 times as many homes that owned 1-3 guns ( 1 shotgun, 1 rifle, maybe 1 handgun).
If ownership becomes so convoluted that transferral can only occur clandestinely by death, you will have such a caste system.
Protect your property rights, including your right to dispose of your property as you see fit.
He talks about Enrico Balazar's "mammoth" 357magnum barrel as if it dwarfs those of Roland's "winchester" 45's.
Jake has a Ruger 44 automatic.
In book 6, before <somebody> dies, the group finds a cache of AR-15's and King says they are fully automatic (or somehow confuses them with M16's).
You might write it all off as a parallel evolution of the gun industry in Eddie, Jake, Roland and Susannah's dimensions of existence rather than our own, except for that bit about Balazar's "mammoth" 357 magnum.
I think the whole premise of the evolution of an American caste system is valid, though. Gun culture is shrinking horizontally, but stretching vertically. Fewer total people own more guns. For example... I own 13 guns. How many people 100 years ago owned 13 guns? But I bet there were 10 times as many homes that owned 1-3 guns ( 1 shotgun, 1 rifle, maybe 1 handgun).
If ownership becomes so convoluted that transferral can only occur clandestinely by death, you will have such a caste system.
Protect your property rights, including your right to dispose of your property as you see fit.
44 AMP
About the Samurai... I know just enough to be dangerous.
Here goes;
The Samurai are generally thought of as soldiers and bodyguards etc...
They were much more than this...
They were a caste system (class) entire to themselves. Their women and children were Samurai and their status was unquestioned, and honored, even by the warlords and emperors of Japan.
A Shogun was a powerful warlord to whom all other warlord's bowed... He was militarily more powerful than an Emperor and the Emperor was Devine and inviolate. (The chief and the witch doctor comes to mind.)
There were upper classes and sub-classes within the Samurai... Warlord's and Royalty and Ronijn (roe-nyn).
Everybody who wasn't Samurai was the scum of the Japanese earth and the bottom of the heap was known as Eta... (Butchers and others who handled meat and anything considered filthy.)
Ronijn were un-employed (Un-retained) Soldier/Bodyguards. They were shunned and otherwise disrespected because they were considered dishonored... They had either failed to protect their Lords or had fallen into disfavor with them, and failed to commit Sepuku (Hari Cari). They had almost no chance of ever being "retained" again.
But they were still Samurai.
The banning of the ordinary people to "keep and bear arms" was, as you stated, a control and it is the primary reason for the birth of Karate (Empty hand) created by the non-Samurai. (Kung Fu in China was created for parallel reasons.)
I can't help but wonder if the UN is aiming for a One-World State of feudalism...
If Steven King can imagine it... who knows what ideas can become reality?
About the Samurai... I know just enough to be dangerous.
Here goes;
The Samurai are generally thought of as soldiers and bodyguards etc...
They were much more than this...
They were a caste system (class) entire to themselves. Their women and children were Samurai and their status was unquestioned, and honored, even by the warlords and emperors of Japan.
A Shogun was a powerful warlord to whom all other warlord's bowed... He was militarily more powerful than an Emperor and the Emperor was Devine and inviolate. (The chief and the witch doctor comes to mind.)
There were upper classes and sub-classes within the Samurai... Warlord's and Royalty and Ronijn (roe-nyn).
Everybody who wasn't Samurai was the scum of the Japanese earth and the bottom of the heap was known as Eta... (Butchers and others who handled meat and anything considered filthy.)
Ronijn were un-employed (Un-retained) Soldier/Bodyguards. They were shunned and otherwise disrespected because they were considered dishonored... They had either failed to protect their Lords or had fallen into disfavor with them, and failed to commit Sepuku (Hari Cari). They had almost no chance of ever being "retained" again.
But they were still Samurai.
The banning of the ordinary people to "keep and bear arms" was, as you stated, a control and it is the primary reason for the birth of Karate (Empty hand) created by the non-Samurai. (Kung Fu in China was created for parallel reasons.)
I can't help but wonder if the UN is aiming for a One-World State of feudalism...
If Steven King can imagine it... who knows what ideas can become reality?
I've read just about everything King has ever written. Some of it several times. And sometimes he does make me cringe when he says something "obviously wrong." But I've come to an opposite conclusion. King always does his research. He spent a ton of time with the PA Highway Patrol to get the police feel "right" in _From a Buick 8_. He's very, very serious about getting his facts right. So it's REALLY hard for me to believe he can't pick up a Gun Digest in order to get his models and calibers straight.
Actually, I think he does it on purpose. Remember that short story where a kid in a college room starts shooting people with a rifle? There was a copycat. King was ripped in much of the press for "writing things that weaker minds take as good ideas." I think he decided to use fictional and mixed up guns in his books. Then nobody can just run out and buy a "Ruger .44 Auto" because that was "Jake's gun." It's the only conclusion that fits the available facts and the way his "gun knowledge" seems to have gotten much worse over the years.
With that in mind, I have refrained from sending him a letter with all his "gun mistakes" in it! But I did consider making such a list for several years.
Gregg
thats a very good theory, but it still doesnt explain how an m16 can punch gaping holes in walls and eventually take out an entire wall with one magazine.
I did notice that a lot of the charachters in the story seemed to use WWII guns, like the MG32 Tictoc man had. If there was a caste sysem like you were talking about, then most of the guns that survived over the years would have been treasured keepsakes like older guns, rather than newer ones.
I did notice that a lot of the charachters in the story seemed to use WWII guns, like the MG32 Tictoc man had. If there was a caste sysem like you were talking about, then most of the guns that survived over the years would have been treasured keepsakes like older guns, rather than newer ones.