State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman

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ClydeFrog said:
Martin had 0 authority or license to go back & confront GZ(if that is what really took place) just because he was mad or "didn't trust the cops".
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What authority or license is required to ask someone who is following you why they are following you? Or maybe I misunderstand. He certainly did not have a right to punch him in the nose, if that is what happened, but he can stop and ask the guy questions. Just as Zimmerman can walk up to Martin and ask him questions.
 
Are there other issues where the judge messed up?
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I thought it was weird how she kept asking GZ over and over in different ways whether he wanted to testify. I thought it should be a matter of the defense calling their witnesses and he is either called or not.

Not a mess up, just seemed strange to me.
 
motorhead0922 said:
I thought it was weird how she kept asking GZ over and over in different ways whether he wanted to testify. I thought it should be a matter of the defense calling their witnesses and he is either called or not.

Not a mess up, just seemed strange to me.
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Yeah. I noticed that too. He said upon speaking to his council he wishes to not testify. She asked if he as sure, then said its up to him in the end whether they told him to or not. Then she kept asking him if he was threatened.

I don't like this judge one bit.
 
I saw quite a bit of it.
I don't think they proved Murder 2...and last I heard the Prosecution is asking that the jury be allowed to consider Manslaughter.
My bet, though, is that he's found guilty if only because of the societal pressure.
I will say this:
Watching the trial has been a very educational experience for me. This is what anyone can face in a similar situation.
What if George had been wearing one of those "Cold Dead Hands" or Anti-Obama t-shirts they sell at the gun shows?
What if he had a "Make My Day" bumper sticker on his car - or that "We Don't Call 911" sticker on his front door?
What if he'd been carrying something cocked and locked as opposed to a long pull DA (I have a P-11)? The prosecution made quite a deal just out of his having a round chambered.

All these things would stack up against you fast and large.

There are many lessons to be learned from all of this.
 
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Constantine said:
motorhead0922 said:
I thought it was weird how she kept asking GZ over and over in different ways whether he wanted to testify. I thought it should be a matter of the defense calling their witnesses and he is either called or not.

Not a mess up, just seemed strange to me.
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Yeah. I noticed that too. He said upon speaking to his council he wishes to not testify. She asked if he as sure, then said its up to him in the end whether they told him to or not. Then she kept asking him if he was threatened....
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You'll see that with some judges quite frequently, and in general it's proper.

The point is to make sure that the record reflects in the strongest terms that the defendant's decision not to testify was knowing and voluntary.
 
I don't think they proved Murder 2...and last I heard the Prosecution is asking that the jury be allowed to consider Manslaughter.
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And that's what worries me. Proving murder requires an element of malice; manslaughter can be sold under the imperfect defense doctrine, which is easier for the prosecution.
 
Response to post #241...

I agree with you that Trevon Martin could have gone up to GZ, calmly asked why he was following him or acting weird but according to a few reports, he didnt do that.
George Zimmerman(when he took police investigators to the scene) said Martin did walk up to him saying; "what do you want" & "what's up?", then he turned & walked away.
Could Trevon Martin have walked back to the condo? I think so. Could he of hung up & called the Sanford PD then met them at his father's friend's house? I think so.
Did Martin need to run or trot away from GZ?(as described by Zimmerman, FWIW) I think not.

There are many gaps & holes in these entire use-of-force event. Will we(the general public) ever learn all the facts? I doubt it, but as time & the court case goes on, I think GZ will be cleared.
At this point, I think the Seminole County Florida jury will be thinking more about their safety & personal security plans in the next few months than the trial verdict.
The judge should, in my view, seal the jury records for 12mo.

Clyde
 
ClydeFrog said:
At this point, I think the Seminole County Florida jury will be thinking more about their safety & personal security plans in the next few months than the trial verdict.
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Many have suggested that the safety and personal security of the jurors will hinge on their verdict. It is scary to think that the jurors might have similar thoughts when reaching a verdict.
 
I said in an earlier post that I thought Zimmerman was "unwise" to exit his vehicle.

Maestro Pistolero challenged that assertion, so I will clarify:

I think it was unwise for Zimmerman to have dismounted and followed on foot, without apparently considering his options should things go south, as they did. Notice I am not saying it was "wrong" for him to follow, in an attempt to ascertain an address or destination, but that it was "unwise".

Had Zimmerman concentrated on maintaining a safe following distance; kept aware of avenues of escape; and not lost track of Martin, then I would not even say that following had necessarily been unwise. It does not seem that was the case.

So, I meant Zimmerman was unwise in a tactical sense, not that I felt his following of Martin was unlawful.

But like I said, I could easily see where a 17 year old would react abruptly to noticing he was being followed by some strange, older guy.

A problem I have noted is the tendency of the prosecution and the anti-Zimmerman people to equate following and reporting (or possibly verbally challenging) a person with assault. This is specious.

Another problem I perceive is the tendency of a lot of us pro-2A types to resent Zimmerman for putting the spotlight on a less than ideal case. I suspect some are assigning more blame to Zimmerman than the evidence necessarily supports, out of that same resentment.

I know I certainly resented this case when it first made the news.
 
If you think the testimony is difficult to see hard facts in, wait until the lawyers, especially the Special Prosecutors, tune up the histrionics for closing statements tomorrow.
 
MLeake, I actually agreed that it may have been unwise for GZ to exit the truck, and made an analogy that a rape victim wearing a short skirt and showing cleavage in a bad part of town may be unwise, but that it no way would make them responsible for a sexual assault.

Wise? No. Illegal or even responsible victimization? Absolutely not.

I agree with you completely as to the tactical failure, as I described in this earlier post:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5574850&postcount=48

I know this isn't a thread about tactics, so I'll limit my opinion to the following: There were at least two tactical errors from Zimmerman that could have avoided the outcome. 1, Having a gun and no pepper spray, and 2, Fumbling for his phone instead of maintaining focus on Martin once Martin announced his presence "yo, you got a problem?". Zimmerman never noticed Martin closing distance to punch him until it was too late. A shot of OC at that point might have bought him at least a few seconds to escape.

Back to the subject at hand. Neither of those errors have bearing on whether Zimmerman feared for life or limb at the time of the shot.
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It looks like you and are pretty much on the same page.

Regards.
 
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I don't think they proved Murder 2...and last I heard the Prosecution is asking that the jury be allowed to consider Manslaughter.
And that's what worries me. Proving murder requires an element of malice; manslaughter can be sold under the imperfect defense doctrine, which is easier for the prosecution.
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But - If I'm not mistaken - the jury won't know the penalties available for the charges. I believe Manslaughter can carry a more harsh penalty than Murder 2 even though it's the "lesser charge".
 
GZ; tactics, Superman Sydrome....

Id say that in this event, one of the few things I agree with the state prosecutors & State Atty's Office is that Zimmerman could have IDed himself to Martin or explained who he was early on, which he reportedly did not do.
This is sometimes called "announcing your office" by LE or private security.
GZ was in plain-clothes & didn't have a uniform or garment that IDed him as a neighborhood watch member(HOA security patrol).
If GZ had taken those pro-active steps or those exchanges were witnessed or recorded by others then his actions might have earned more support. Zimmerman would also be less inclined to have a racial bias or a civil rights issue too because it would be documented that Martin attacked him or fought with him even though he knew of GZ's status.

I think GZ may have had what I call; superman sydrome.
When you are in a special position or have special weapons or authority & you are in plain-clothes, NO ONE can tell that or know that just by sight.
You need to ID yourself ASAP or have a badge/patch/raid jacket/etc.
There have been many incidents where sworn LE officers or "good guys" have been killed because they were in plain-clothes, saw a crime in progress, drew their sidearm, then were killed by other LE officers on the scene.
The first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty died that way.
She was on a bank robbery detail, left her assigned post at a active scene, then got shot to death by other agents.
Another Orlando area event in the mid 2000s involved a young plain clothes police officer named Mario Jenkins. Jenkins got into a huge fight at a college football game with a group of drunk students. He drew his Glock sidearm(his only weapon) & was shot multiple times by a Orlando PD bike officer(in uniform).

CF
 
A blurb on the news this morning mentioned that the judge will be instructing the jury to consider a lesser sentence of manslaughter or even aggravated assault.

Zimmerman's lawyer said that they didn't ask for a SYG hearing initially because they mean to hold the option in reserve. If Zimmerman is found guilty, they're going to request the hearing as a means of appeal. Is that feasible or likely to be granted?
 
aggravated assault will not be allowed, but the state is trying to get a Murder 3 included with the felony being "child abuse".
 
Tom Servo said:
Zimmerman's lawyer said that they didn't ask for a SYG hearing initially because they mean to hold the option in reserve. If Zimmerman is found guilty, they're going to request the hearing as a means of appeal. Is that feasible or likely to be granted?
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SYG hearings in Florida are held to seek immunity from having a trial, not to appeal the verdict of a trial that has been held. At any rate, Zimmerman specifically waived his right to a SYG hearing at the beginning of the criminal trial.
 
Especially when the child abuse aspect of the law requires the defendant know he was dealing with a minor unlike the assault on the elderly law in which you do not have to know the person has reached the age of legal description "elderly"...

Brent
 
The judge also refused to instruct the jury that following somebody for the purposes or reporting activity or location to the police is NOT illegal, or to instruct the prosecution not to tell the jury that following in such manner is illegal.

She really is doing a fine job of creating the appearance of partiality to the prosecutor, and setting up a chain of what I would have to think are reversible errors.
 
Maybe it's the poker player in me reading tells, but I have a feeling the judge has already decided she isn't going to allow the 3rd degree(child abuse) charge.

Edit: This truly has gone into the bizarre.
 
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