Start Reloading or Keep Buying 1000 Bulk

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564453

Read this thread for opposing views. This topic is talked to death.

Die hard reloaders who love it refuse to factor in their time, which is fair if it's a hobby and not purely economical.

From a purely economical standpoint, if you're on a low or fixed income or have unlimited time and free or paid-off equipment, it may make sense. But in my view if you have decent earning potential and unlimited hours to work, buy factory ammo in bulk. Save the brass and trade it in for credit or sell it.
Stated another way, it's not a fair analysis if you never factor in time/value.
It's like saying that you built a house for free. Well, not really. It took you a year of labor.

It's the "efficiency" argument. It's free to walk across the country, but clearly more valuable to just by a plane ticket because it will save you days, weeks or months of walking.

I just bought 2000 rounds of 9x19 115 grain and 1000 rounds of .40 165 grain professional reloads for a total of $511, shipped. 3000 rounds loaded ammo shipped to my house for 17 cents each. Not really much more than the costs of all the time and equipment and space investments for reloading your own...
 
Last edited:
I just bought 2000 rounds of 9x19 115 grain and 1000 rounds of .40 165 grain professional reloads for a total of $511, shipped. 3000 rounds loaded ammo shipped to my house for 17 cents each. Not really much more than the costs of all the time and equipment and space investments for reloading your own...

I just loaded 2000 rounds of 10mm 180 grain and 1000 rounds of 230 grain .45 ACP for a total of $270. 3000 rounds of loaded ammo for 9 cents each. Significant savings over time (3000 rounds/month x 10 years = $28,800) even counting BS factors like "time and equipment and space investments for reloading your own"...

leadcounsel said:
Stated another way, it's not a fair analysis if you never factor in time/value.

Time/value factored in below for you.

Simple version:

Billy Bulk makes $30 per hour and works 7 hours at the sweat shop. He buys 1000 rounds of cheap 9mm for $210. His wallet is empty.

Roy Reloader makes $30 per hour and works 4 hours at the sweat shop. He buys components for 1000 rounds of 9mm for $120. His wallet is empty. He then spends 2 hours loading his components.

Billy invested 7 hours at work for his ammo. Roy invested 4 hours at work + 2 hours at home for a total of 6 hours of labor for 1000 rounds of 9mm. Even including the amortization of all the other factors you seem to think are significant, Roy's total would be well less than 6.1 hours of labor.

Assuming 1000 rounds of 9mm are valued at $210 then:

Billy Bulk = $210 = 7 hours of labor at $30 per hour.

Roy Reloader = $210 = 4 hours at $30/hour + $90 additional labor.

That $90 added value to the components cost Roy 2 hours of his time. So his time was worth $45/hour.

Billy Bulk = 7 hours x $30/hour = $210 ammo

Roy Reloader = 4 hours x $30/hour + 2 hours x $45/hour = $210 ammo


Your choice. The more you shoot, the more you'll save.

More complicated version:

Breakdown of the numbers, including the items that leadcounsel thinks are significant factors (initial equipment cost, powder weighing time, etc). I used $2400 for initial equipment cost.

Bottom line is that worst case scenario, no consideration of reloading time as recreational time (important not to miss the "Angry Housewives of Where Ever" on Tv!) and reloading the ammo with the smallest price differential between bulk and reloads (9mm), you're paying yourself somewhere between $30 - $60 hour. As the price differential between factory ammo and components gets greater (.357 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 ACP, .38-40, 10mm, etc, etc) your hourly return gets greater.

Picking up brass – outdoor - At all of the outdoor ranges I shoot at informally, EVERYONE picks up their brass. Doesn’t matter whether you reload it, give it away, or throw it away, “picking up brass” time is the same for everyone. In the few cases where someone has just walked away and left their brass, ammo boxes, targets, etc, on the ground, we’ve picked them up as a group, reloaders and non-reloaders alike. At club competitions, everyone picks up brass after each stage and throws it in a bucket. After the match, if you want some brass we split it among everyone. Takes about 5 seconds to hold out your bag and get some brass dumped into it. Takes the non-reloaders that long to throw away their ammo boxes. At major competitions, it's "lost brass" anyway and no shooter picks up their brass. I don’t see any difference between reloaders and non-reloaders here.

Picking up brass – indoor – I don’t shoot much at indoor ranges except in competitions, which are considered “lost brass” – the range keeps the brass. In that case no one picks up brass, a range employee sweeps it away between competitors. At the indoor ranges I’ve shot at informally, everyone sweeps their brass into a dustpan when they’re done. The reloaders dump theirs into their bag and take it home, the non-reloaders dump theirs into a pail and the range sells it. Again, I don’t see any difference between reloaders and non-reloaders here.

Sorting brass – (you didn’t mention this one) I use a system of plastic trays with different size slots in them for the different calibers, don’t remember the name, cost about $20 if I remember correctly. I usually dump all the brass into 5 gallon buckets until the bucket is about full. It takes about 15 minutes to run the full bucket through the sorters, and I believe that a bucket is about 5,000 rounds. So that’s 5,000 rounds / (15 min x 60 sec/min) = 5.56 rounds per second, or .18 seconds per round sorting brass.

Cleaning brass – Tumbler does about 1,000 rounds per bowl. Takes me about 30 seconds to dump a bucket of sorted brass into the tumbler, put on the lid, and turn it on. Takes about a minute to turn it off, take off the lid, and run it through the media separator when it’s done. 1,000 rounds in 90 seconds = 11.11 rounds per second, or .09 seconds per round to clean the brass.

Hunting for primers at gun shows – this is somehow different from “hunting for ammo” at gunshows for non-reloaders? I’ve never hunted for ANYTHING at a gunshow or anywhere, I personally order all my reloading supplies and ammo and stock up when they’re cheap. You’ll have to supply me with a factor for this one.

and on and on and on – you’ll have to supply names and factors for these. I’ve included everything I can think of from getting the brass off the ground to getting it sorted and cleaned and polished and ready for reloading.

So let’s set up our equation:

Picking Up Brass (PUB) = same thing for both the reloaders and non-reloaders I shoot with, I’d call this one zero. You’ll have to give me your take on it.

Cleaning Brass (CB) = .18 seconds for sorting + .09 seconds for cleaning = .27 seconds per round. We’ll keep everything in hours, so that’s .27/3600 = .000075 hours per round.

Hunting For Components (HFC) = I still don’t see the difference between hunting for components and hunting for loaded ammo. If you’re not smart enough to look ahead and stock up, it seems to me that it would be the same for both. Again, I’ll need your help since you obviously see this differently.

On And On And On (OAOAO) = You’ll have to give me these. I’ve gone through everything I can think of from picking up brass, to getting it ready to load, to buying components. But you did mention weighing. I guess you assume that Dillon doesn’t include that in their “rounds per hour” figure. I spend about 30 seconds setting and verifying the weight of the powder charge before I start, and another 30 seconds checking it every couple of hundred rounds. So if I’m loading for an hour (400 rounds) and I spend 1 minute weighing, that’s .15 seconds per round or .000042 hours per round.

Lever Time (LT) = Time actually pulling the lever reloading. Dillon says 800 rounds an hour, I’m still going to use 400. I’m not reloading to try to break any speed records. So Lever Time = 400 rounds per hour, or .0025 hours per round.

So far our reloading equation to calculate the hours spent reloading is:

Number of rounds x (PUB + CB + HFC + OAOAO + LT) = hours spent reloading

For example, for 1,000 rounds, it would be:

1,000 x (0 + .000075 + 0 + .000042 + .0025)
= 1,000 x .00267
= 2.7 hours to load 1,000 rounds.

It’s pretty easy to look at prices and see that the components in reloaded 9mm ammo are about half the cost of the cheapest factory 9mm. Adding the component cost into the economic cost of reloading equation makes it:

((Number of rounds x .00267) x (wage per hour)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost)

Last thing I can think of is equipment cost. We’ll use your Dillon price of $1200 and double it. So equipment cost is $2400.

As I said, I’ve had my Dillon for 23 years. Between 1992 and 2002 I easily shot 2,000 rounds per month. Since then I’ve dropped off to 500 rounds per month. That means that I’ve loaded (10 years x 12 months/year x 2,000) + (13 years x 12 months/year x 500) = 318,000 rounds. We won't include the rounds that my friends, kids, and grandkids have loaded on it. So the amortized cost of my equipment, using your price and doubling it, is $2400 / 318,000 = $0.0075 per round

If we add the equipment into our equation for the reloader, the economic cost of reloading becomes:

((Number of rounds x .00267) x (wage per hour)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost) + (number of rounds x .0075)

The economic cost of NOT reloading is pretty simple. It’s the factory ammo cost.

To determine the economic break-even point of the two methods, you simply set them equal to each other and solve for the wage:

((.00267 x Rounds) x (wage/hr)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost) + (number of rounds x .0075) = factory ammo cost.

7th grade algebra gives us;

Wage/hr = (factory ammo cost – (number of rounds x .0075) – (.5 x factory ammo cost)) / (.00267 x rounds)

Let’s see what the break-even wage is for 9mm, using $180/1,000 for factory ammo cost:

Wage/hr = (180 – (1,000 x .0075) – (.5 x 180)) / (.00267 x 1,000)
= (180 – 7.5 – 90) / 2.67

= $30.90 per hour

Using your numbers for equipment cost and wage, and an extremely conservative rate of production, economically you would have to be making about $31.00 per hour to justify buying your 9mm rather than reloading it.

Again, as I stated in a previous post, your assumptions are extremely sensitive to production rate. For example, if you were to use Dillon’s 800 round/hr production rate with the same factors for sorting, cleaning, etc, the time to produce 1 round would be .00137 instead of .00267 hours, making the break even wage:

Wage/hr = (180 – (1,000 x .0075) – (.5 x 180)) / (.00137 x 1,000)
= (180 – 7.5 – 90) / 1.37

= $60.22 per hour

Hopefully you’ll enlighten me by pointing out my errors and omissions. I’m looking forward to incorporating them into my calculations and experiencing some economic enlightenment!

Feel free to point out my errors in the above calculations. For example, I used my own experience in amortizing the $2400 in equipment, let me know what you consider to be a reasonable amount of rounds to use in the amortization.
 
Last edited:
onandonandonandon... the cost of the space taken up by the machines, components, cost to heat and cool said space, reloading books, updated reloading book, computer to research loads from powder/bullet makers, power to run said computer, replacement of computer, time spent at TFL handloading forum, cost of water used during wet tumbling, cost of Direct TV watched while preping cases, cost of drill press used for depriming cases, cost of shop to hold drill press, the time I spend washing dishes to placate the spouse...

...45-auto hasn't even scratched the surface on the cost to reload!

I thought my $600 startup cost was recovered BY THE TIME I HAD LOADED 4000 9MM ROUNDS, but the on and on cost clearly shows I can't afford to shoot at all!

Here the skinny.

If you shoot a lot, reloading makes sense. If you need custom loads, reloading makes sense. If you are a detail person, reloading makes sense.

If you shoot a little, are happy with factory fodder and can't boil an egg don't reload.:D
 
SeniorXJ,

I love the peace of mind reloading gives me for this reason. I have enough components to take care of my situation till I die; therefore, when the "fit hits the shan" or, as a local talk show host puts it, "when the well known substance hits the electrical convenience" and prices are sky high and or supplies are very limited, I'm covered. Start reloading NOW.
 
I want to know where you guys get your components. It cost me .09 for bullets .04 for primer and about .02 for powder. So my 9mm round cost me about $0.15 per round. That is no brass, lights, a/c, and mostly my time ($95/hour if at my real job). So I do reload. But it is not for any cost savings. For my bulk shooting I shoot cheap bulk ammo.
 
Reloaders endorse reloading. Who knew? lol. :cool:

Some bias perhaps? I bet there's thousands of reloading setups that sit collecting dust much like home weight benches...

I've thought about it many times, and it just doesn't make economic sense and only makes sense if you enjoy sitting at a press, which I don't think I would.

YMMV. Congratulations.
 
From a purely economical standpoint, if you're on a low or fixed income or have unlimited time and free or paid-off equipment, it may make sense. But in my view if you have decent earning potential and unlimited hours to work, buy factory ammo in bulk. Save the brass and trade it in for credit or sell it.
Stated another way, it's not a fair analysis if you never factor in time/value.
It's like saying that you built a house for free. Well, not really. It took you a year of labor.

It's the "efficiency" argument. It's free to walk across the country, but clearly more valuable to just by a plane ticket because it will save you days, weeks or months of walking.

^^^^^this

I have five young kids, a very demanding but well paying job, and lots of demands on my non-work time (outside of my shooting hobby). I did the math and found that I could buy some 22 caliber handguns to do a good chunk of my practice sessions with and save money versus reloading, even without factoring in the time reloading would take. Reloading is a great hobby that I might get into at some point but right now if I were to start reloading it would have to come at the sacrifice of other hobby time, like shooting. Personally I would rather be shooting ammo than reloading ammo. In the future I may have the time to take up reloading but not now. There are many in my situation and their decisions are rational. It's not true to say that anyone who doesn't reload is making a poor economic decision.
 
It's not that at all . It should have nothing to do with your hourly worth . Why you ask , because you reloading haters don't use it in every equation in your life and make your choices accordingly . You just pick on the reloading part . According to those that feel your FREE time must be part of the equation . You must also mean if you make or have the potential to make $100hr you will save money if you PAY somebody $50hr to do your shopping . err wait a what ??? I could go on and on with examples like that . They make sense on paper but not in reality .

Unless you are calculating every second of your day and living every second to maximize your earning potential . There is no reason to pick on reloading as not being cost effective based on what your labor would cost .

Maybe it's just me but I just don't see the logic . I mean if that really made sense then it would make sense to never go out with friends and work as many hours a day as possible , only leaving time for sleep . If you don't you really are just wasting your life away . Well if your life is only baste on money then I guess it makes sense but if you want to live your life . That life will be better off if you don't base everything you do on how much your time is worth doing it .
 
To the guys who maintain the "save money" argument for starting into handloading , let me throw out another scenario I was involved in. I worked part time for a motorcycle shop and back about 3 years ago when gas was hovering around $3.75+/gal we saw a huge influx of people wanting to purchase scooters with the sole intent to save money on gas. So same situation different variables Yes a scooter gets 100 mpg , vs your typical auto that gets 23 mpg , but again, you need to absorb the initial $1500 purchase cost of the scooter to start saving money. You could potentially spend the next 15 years driving the scooter before you see any clear savings. Even most of your big corporations when faced with large capital mfg. machinery purchase decisions want to review a full "ROI" (Return On Investment) report before the purchase is made. So again my final comment is if you embark into reloading to save money your doing so for the wrong reason. If you embark into reloading in pursuit of the highest quality ammo, gaining ballistics knowledge and also becoming independent from ammo panic shortages your doing it for a better reason...
 
Last edited:
Well lets break down the car/truck to scooter cost in gas . I was spending $15 a day in gas but with the scooter only $3 a day . OK $15 x 25 days a month = $375 , $3 x25 days a month = $75 . Difference of $300 minus the $100 a month a scooter payment = $200 net savings a month .
 
Last edited:
Metal God said:
Well lets break down the car/truck to scooter cost in gas . I was spending $15 a day in gas but with the scooter only $3 a day . OK $15 x 25 days a month = $375 , $3 x25 days a month = $75 . Difference of $300 minus the $100 a month a scooter payment = $200 net savings a month .

You need to be way more realistic with your calculations comparing daily miles. There is NO way a scooter can 'replace' all the daily miles driven. I would take a reasonable educated guess that the average person logging 20,000 mi annually can substitute about 1700 mi a year on a scooter. Granted this could be a widely varied number , such as a senior citizen scooter operator in a retirement community in the warm deep south , vs a typical working adult in the more colder northern states.
 
It's not that at all . It should have nothing to do with your hourly worth . Why you ask , because you reloading haters don't use it in every equation in your life and make your choices accordingly . You just pick on the reloading part . According to those that feel your FREE time must be part of the equation . You must also mean if you make or have the potential to make $100hr you will save money if you PAY somebody $50hr to do your shopping . err wait a what ??? I could go on and on with examples like that . They make sense on paper but not in reality .

Unless you are calculating every second of your day and living every second to maximize your earning potential . There is no reason to pick on reloading as not being cost effective based on what your labor would cost .

Maybe it's just me but I just don't see the logic .

First nobody here is anti-reloaders. The premise of the OP is whether it is more economical. From an ECONOMICAL approach a person is disengenious if he doesn't include the cost of his time and labor.

Those that can't see the logic simply refuse to see it.

If you are employed and have to get from San Diego to Pheonix next month, and the question was posed whether it made more ECONOMICAL sense to walk, ride a bicycle, drive, or fly to Pheonix, it might very well be cheaper to ride a bicycle or drive, but cost more in terms of wasted time. Answering that you enjoy bicycling is not answering the question whether it is more ECONOMICAL.

Now, if someone came on and asked whether it was more fun, you might be correct that it's more fun to bicycle if that's your hobby... but it's not the question.

Same with grocery shopping, changing the car oil, mowing the lawn. If your income is high enough it DOES make economical sense to subcontract those tasks.

This is what rubs me with reloaders. Someone asks if it's more economical, and reloaders will chime in and say you'll save all sorts of money... without factoring in the thousands or tens of thousands of man hours of labor spent reloading ... it's an illogical or disingenious position to not factor it in.
 
The only way this thread could go nowhere faster is if we could combine the current riveting back and forth with the topic of whether brass has headspace or not...
 
overthere said:
The only way this thread could go nowhere faster is if we could combine the current riveting back and forth with the topic of whether brass has headspace or not...

Or if someone asked "what's the best gun lube" ? :D
 
Back
Top