Stand there and shoot or get off the X?

Many mantras are simply intended to foster an idea or mindset and not to be taken as a rigid absolute. Everyone has their own tactical kabuki dance but I am not going to side step 3 feet just to do it. If I need to move I will move and if I need to remain static and take a knee, go prone or supine- I'll do that. I think what is important is that a person seek out the training which will allow them a good frame of reference to make those kinds of decisions.
 
Last edited:
The way I was trained: move if cover/concealment is readily available, meaning a few steps and a dive at most. If cover/concealment isn't available, drop to a knee, take an extra breath and hit the bad guy every time you pull the trigger
 
To move or not to move, that is NOT the question.

Moving off the 'X', so it is called, is not a do in every case procedure.

If surprised it might be a good bet to move and upset their plan, and if forewarned it might be best to just let 'em have it.

Deaf
 
If youre only at a level where you can barely shoot well (if that), standing still and without pressure...
...then you are WAY ahead of 99% of the shooters I see at the range. :D

Advanced techniques (like shooting at moving targets while on the move) can surely give a person who can implement them effectively a significant edge in a gunfight.

Basic techniques (like being able to hit a stationary target while standing still) can also give a person who can implement them effectively a significant edge in a gunfight.

Those who have mastered basic techniques should move on to working to master advanced techniques. Those who have not should work on the basics.
 
Statistically, no, methinks.

I suppose the idea is that if the bullet's not in the same space you occupy, the chances that it'll be in the place you move to has increased.

But there are numerous areas in space & time ("degrees of freedom") where the bullet isn't, but only 1 where it is, so you're still much more likely to move into an area where the bullet is not.

A buddy of mine was a firearms trainer in Dallas. He noted that sometimes the best place to be is standing still because in numerous instances of shootings, it was the bystanders around the targets that were shot and NOT the intended victim who did not change position for various reasons.

So enters the conundrum. If you are going against the unskilled or gangster styled shooter who doesn't aim or doesn't have good gun control skills, staying in place may be the best thing you can do because that is where the bullets are not going. If you are up against somebody with experience and can hit targets, then your best bet may be to move. So the question is, how do you know what to do?

Here is a recent example. We discussed this already. The old lady stood her ground, firing. She was shot at by both robbers and was not hit by either one.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555527&highlight=pawn+shop+robbery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8qj832AaII

There are a tremendous number of factors that can come into play in a gun fight for which we have no control and no way to realistically anticipate. We also have a couple of concurrent and sometimes conflicting goals in gunflighting, to not be hit by incoming bullets (and/or not allowing loved ones to be hit) and keeping bullets from becoming incoming bullets (stopping or suppressing the attacker(s). Unless people are very well trained and maintain a fairly high level of competence, their ability to shoot on the move (getting off the proverbial X) deteriorates their ability to hit targets significantly. Never mind the fact that so many gun owners are doing well to punch paper at 7 yards during leisure shooting and not even under stress.
 
Here is a recent example. We discussed this already. The old lady stood her ground, firing. She was shot at by both robbers and was not hit by either one.


Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit. I'm not sure if the robber was moving when she hit him.
 
Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit.

Well, they did drop to the floor where they were unable to reach their pocketed guns and as seen in the video, one curls into a ball. He is shot at on the floor, on the X in his ball, flinching, and doesn't get hit like that either.
 
...because in numerous instances of shootings, it was ...

Here is a recent example.

Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit.

...one ... is shot at on the floor,... doesn't get hit ...

One cannot draw valid conclusions from a very small sample of data that involve varied conditions.

The only really good way to evaluate the answer that I can think of would be to equip some defenders and attackers with simunitions, and some attackers with training knives, and to run a large number of exercises under different circumstances.

People keep discussing "gunfights". I suggest that the edge would probably go to the defenders who can move quickly to cover. But I do not know, and I do know that at least some members here have availed themselves of that kind of training. I have not.

And in classic "Tueller" drills, I think it likely that defenders who decide to "stand there and shoot" may be surpassed at how many times they get run over.
 
One Other Thing...

All other considerations aside, a "stand there and shoot" strategy is only viable in the event that the defender's initial position provides both (1) a direction of fire that does not endanger others and (2) a reasonably good backstop.

What are the chances?
 
Well, they did drop to the floor where they were unable to reach their pocketed guns and as seen in the video, one curls into a ball. He is shot at on the floor, on the X in his ball, flinching, and doesn't get hit like that either.



The fellow moved from standing upright to a position where the counter was between him and the shooter. The shooter had to compensate for his move and that gave the lady time to get the hit she scored.


Could things have been done more proficiently by the pawn shop staff? Of course, but the bad guys could have been a lot more competent as well. I hope we, and the pawn shop staff, can learn from the incident.

From the staff, we see that trying to get a revolver out of a pocket while diving on the floor to avoid being shot looks difficult. From both the staff and the robbers, we also see that having a decent grasp of the fundamentals when a shot is possible is important. From the robbers we see that testing your firearm with your carry ammunition, knowing how to clear malfunctions and not inducing malfunctions is important. Movement seemed to be something that came naturally to the two countermen when they were being targeted by the bad guys. Movement seemed to come naturally to the bad guy as soon as he realized he was being targeted by the lady. The lady dropped to the floor after bullets came close to her. Maybe we should view movement as something we may do instinctively under stress and train ourselves around it.
 
If you haven't been trained, it's probably best to follow your survival instinct. If your legs want to move, then move. If your legs want to stand in one spot and return fire, do that. I've seen a number of times when someone gets hurt trying to fight instinct. "Training says to stand still and fight but I want to move" kind of deal and they end up freezing because they're fighting themselves now.

And I don't understand pocket carrying. Seems like there's entirely too much stuff that has to happen exactly right to be able to draw effectively
 
i find this to be a really interesting question.

my thoughts: moving make sense. yes, the BG will make mistakes and miss you. such mistakes are likely to be relatively random (missing to the right are as likely as missing to the left, to the top, and to the bottom). one possible exception to this randomness might be jerking trigger in anticipation of recoil (for right-hand shooters, the bullets hit low left -- which is low-right from perspective of the person being shot at). so, moving to the right (and especially kneeling while moving to the right) might be a bad idea.

however, moving left (or better yet behind cover) might work well.

another interesting "wrinkle" here is this: when one is moving, one is less likely to make hits with one's first rounds. so, again, is it better to stand still and make one's first shot count, or move the X and have much higher probability of missing this crucial shot? again, i would probably, lean towards moving the x, even in this case. one reason is that moving is probably something that would come naturally when one is fearing for one's life; another reason is that i'd rather bad guy misses me v. i hit bad guy and bad guy hits me, too because i was an easy stationary target.

hope this rambling make some sense.
 
If I even THINK someone MIGHT approach me with intent to shoot me - I am gong to be moving. I seem to get approached by folks looking for something in certain places I pump gas. One guy wanted money for his old man who was desperate for some insulin. Another was just looking for a handout; another needed money for gas, etc, etc, etc.

I keep my loaded handgun in my pocket, in a holster and I'm pretty darn good about moving all around my Jeep, washing windows, looking at my tires, just keep moving so i don't get caught in the pocket. I like pocket carry - it allows me to keep my hand on my gun, but keep it concealed at the same time. Am I fooling anyone? Who knows - who cares. Keep on moving....
 
Skill helps in a gun fight and knowledge of tactics has great value but what separates you from the dead or wounded guy is can you stand there while under fire and take aim and squeeze that trigger and make that shot count.

Most of us will never know for sure and most of us hope we never have to find out but all the training in the world will never prepare you for putting rounds on target while bullets wiz by your head.
 
The only really good way to evaluate the answer that I can think of would be to equip some defenders and attackers with simunitions, and some attackers with training knives, and to run a large number of exercises under different circumstances.

Well yes and no. As I can tell you from ful contact it DOES open your eyes, but since it is really not full contact, do or die, you do get used to being hurt some and can still game it.

Only the Gladiators knew what worked and didn't. And only those who survived for a time.

Deaf
 
Posted by Deaf Smith:
Well yes and no. As I can tell you from ful contact it DOES open your eyes, but since it is really not full contact, do or die, you do get used to being hurt some and can still game it.
The idea is that if you get shot or "stabbed" before hitting the opponent (as many times as the game calls for), or if you hit a bystander, YOU LOSE.

Trying it over and over against different opponents in varying scenarios should improve the capabilities of the defender.

I say "should" because I have not actually engaged in FoF training, and at my age and in my condition, I do not intend to.
 
Stand there and shoot or get off the X?
Most self defense training involves at least some version of getting out of the way of possible bullets headed your way.
Getting off the X.
But the statistics of gunfights suggest that a whole lot of rounds fired in anger seem to miss their target.
If that's true, are we as likely to step into the path of a bullet as to avoid one, if we attempt to move out of the way?

Can you predict where the rain drops are going to fall?

In the meantime, not being directly in front of someone's muzzle is a good place to start.

Personally, I can say that when I was attacked by a guy with a large kitchen knife, the only reason he didn't stab me is because I got away from the blade and its arc of movement.

When I was attending some Simunitions training several years ago, my assigned scenario involved a surprise "ambush" in a "restaurant", where my partner and I were seated for a meal break, and we witnessed a staged disturbance that turned out to be an "ambush".

The reason I didn't get hit by several rounds initially fired in my direction was because I threw myself out of a chair in which I was sitting, to the floor underneath the table (while also trying to clear a feeding stoppage in the Sim gun :eek: ). The wall behind where I'd been seated the moment the shooting started, and the top of the table in front of where I'd been seated, were covered with bright dye splats.

The other participants (shooters) and the student spectators were all surprised I hadn't been hit by any of the FX "bullets". More like disbelief, as they had me hold out my arms and slowly turn around while everyone looked for dye "hits". I hadn't been hit, though, or even caught any dye splash from close hits.

My "partner", who had chosen to stand up out of his chair and exchange "gunfire" with the attackers, suffered some nasty hits and minor lacerations on both of his exposed forearms. (If it matters, I made a pair of tightly spaced COM hits on one attacker, after clearing the damned stoppage upon hitting the floor, and drove the other attacker to duck and remain behind "cover" until the scenario was halted. I was rather glad I'd been practicing both clearing stoppages and moving while training as an instructor at my agency, and thanked the head instructor upon my return. ;) )

So, in my limited experience, getting away from a real blade, and incoming Sim rounds, seemed to have been useful tactics.

I've listened to enough other cops who have been involved in shooting incidents to think that movement can be helpful ... but it can also make shooting at an attacker more difficult, especially if the attacker is also moving.

I remember reading how some large state agency once had a review of several year's worth of shooting incidents. In that review, they reportedly found that in just under 65% of the incidents, both the suspects and their officers had been moving while shooting was occurring.

Now, we can probably consider the decision (reaction) of moving to be a tactic. Conscious and successful application of tactics is probably always going to be dependent, at least to some degree, by the situation and circumstances.

Blind, panicked or unthinking movement - or luck - probably isn't the best of tactics upon which to rely. Training, combined with some successful experience, and not panicking under stress, are arguably better options than randomly running around in circles and desperately hoping to avoid being punched, kicked, bludgeoned, stabbed or shot.

It's been said that (proper) training can help "inoculate" someone against some of the adverse effects of stress. Well, successful experience in having functioned under previous stressful situations probably helps with that, too. (This is where LE, active military and other armed professionals can often have an advantage over the average private citizen who isn't exposed to such incidents as a normal consequence of their daily activities.)

One of the tricks with getting "training", however, is to find some which is appropriate to an individual's particular needs and existing skillset, and which takes their physical condition (and any special needs) into consideration. Getting injured during training is never helpful, and is counter-productive. Suffering injuries during training can adversely affect being able to remain healthy, working and enjoying the normal pursuits and activities of everyday life.

I've known my fair share of aging LE firearms instructors who recognized their diminishing physical capabilities (due to disease, injuries, etc), and how their physical conditions prevented them from doing the same sort of physically demanding training & practice they'd done when they were younger. They focused on what they could do to keep their minds and foundations skillsets sharp. Sometimes this meant evolving their choice of guns/calibers they selected for retirement CCW, too.
 
what Fastbolt said

Ya - just what Fast Bolt said-- I try to think in simple terms in complex evolving situations. In this case to move or not move. The object is to reduce your own target profile which can be as simple as stepping one leg back and turning side ways. You don't have to move much to create a higher chance of a miss on yourself. Think of a grandfather clock gong. Which would be harder to hit a stationary clock gong, or one that is moving just a couple of inches left, then right. And while I am tracking the clock gong, the clock gong has time to size me up and take appropriate action. When we move we accomplish two things. We create less frontal target area and we buy ourselves time to evaluate,respond or escape. The more time I have to live the better I like it. While I am moving I might see that the other person is a security guard, not a BG.

These are great discussions, not because answers are found, but because thought is provoked ahead of time.
 
I really like what fastbolt wrote. Very good perspective.

As someone else has said, the object of a self defense situation is to come out uninjured... i.e. not shot, not stabbed, not beaten, not stomped. If I shoot and miss because I am running and my attacker is running in the opposite direction, and that ends the situation, that is not a failure, that is a success.

I've known my fair share of aging LE firearms instructors who recognized their diminishing physical capabilities (due to disease, injuries, etc), and how their physical conditions prevented them from doing the same sort of physically demanding training & practice they'd done when they were younger. They focused on what they could do to keep their minds and foundations skillsets sharp. Sometimes this meant evolving their choice of guns/calibers they selected for retirement CCW, too

Very true. Recently I have been sought out by people with limited or no firearms experience for advice on self protection, buying a home defense gun, or how to get started toward CCW. I have found it is crucial to consider what this person will be physically capable of doing. Advising an tall athletic young man with big hands is very different than a 72 year old woman with some arthritis in her shoulders.

Jim
 
Thanks.

Bear in mind that my perspective is based upon my training and experiences as a LE firearms instructor. (And, it's personal perspectives and opinions, not something that specifically represents the institutional opinions and specific policies of my former agency on any particular issue.)

In other words, it's more a case of looking past the equipment considerations that are popular among private citizen gun forums & owners, and focusing on developing the mindset, skillset and overall knowledge of the cops I help train.

Over the years, the significant number of these folks haven't been what you might consider to be firearms enthusiasts.

However, their lives are nonetheless often on the line and at great risk, so the skills and tactics being taught have to be kept relevant, simple, practice, effective and as easy to remember (especially under stress) as is possible.

It's often not a specific "equipment" (gun) problem, so much as it is a training, knowledge and tactics solution to a situation that's rapidly unfolding in a dynamic, chaotic and evolving manner. :eek:

Then, there's always the inevitable restrictions of limited training time and money available to provide that training.

Instead of an 8-16hr class, we may only be able to get a 4hr block authorized. Instead of a 16-24hr class, maybe we'll get 8hrs. When you're lucky enough to get a 24hr class authorized, maybe you're trying to fit a 40+ hour amount of training and practice into it.

Things like that. It never really ends. Factor in the required 10min break out of every hour, and the ever-present requirement to fill out admin paperwork at whatever level(s) of gov bureaucracy may be involved, and those hours can get reduced more than you might think, and in a hurry.;)

I haven't done much training of private citizens since I retired, not in a classroom setting, at any rate. Some individual stuff now and then. I've been reluctant to get involved in the private training business field, although as fluid as it's become in recent years, I won't automatically rule out changing my mind. Maybe. ;) The whole CCW landscape is apparently on the verge of evolving here in CA, and the opportunities for private vendors providing services for agencies, for training licensees wanting CCW's (and renewing them every 2, 3 or 4 years, depending on the category of licensee) has been incrementally expanding.
 
Back
Top