Stainless vs Blue...which is STRONGER?

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mathman

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I have always heard that blue guns are stronger (in terms of the actual metal) than their stainless counterparts. Is this true? Any metalurgists out there?

I know the obvious benefit of a stainless gun in terms of corrosion resistance, but I'm wondering if blue guns have any advantages over the stainless (beside the fact that they look a hell of a lot better).
 
Decide based on preference and corrosion resistance. In pistols those are about the only real differences worth mentioning.

Some say their stainless is stronger--Beretta is one.
Some say their blued is stronger--Ruger is one.

Steel and stainless steel are not two metals. There are a ton of different alloys of both and each alloy can be tempered to have a different range of properties.

So both are stronger than the other, both are weaker than the other.
 
i believe that it is six of one, half a dozen of another. the type of stainless used in guns will rust(at least that is the case i have seen with savages) meaning that it is a cheaper grade of stainless. the cheaper grades of stainless do tend to be on the soft side also. but im sure that its no inferior then the steel used in blued guns.
 
the type of stainless used in guns will rust ... meaning that it is a cheaper grade of stainless
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Any stainless steel will rust if properly coaxed. The stainless steel alloys that are more prone to rust are actually probably stronger alloys with a higher carbon content.

But, the theoretical hardness capability of a steel alloy is really not very relevant to firearms, because, unlike knives, firearms contain very little steel that is hardened anywhere near as hard as it could be. When you start hardening steels as hard as you can get them without excessive brittleness, then the carbon steel alloys come out the winners in general. But since most (nearly all) of a firearm isn't hardened to the limit of the alloy, the theoretical hardness limits don't come into play.
 
I was very interested in this myself so I called Les Baer (the company, not the man himself :D ). I was told that stainless steel expands more than blued steel when the gun heats up. The phone representative actually told me that most competition shooters bought their blued guns rather than their stainless. I was also told that one of the best finishes for blued guns is hard chrome. That is how I got my Baer Thunder Ranch Special. I still might get the Premier II in stainless though since it can't wear off like even a hard chrome finish can. The humidity and salt air in Miami is brutal on guns!
 
I was told that stainless steel expands more than blued steel when the gun heats up.
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I'm pretty sure that this can not be true if it is made as a blanket statement. It is probably true of the alloys that Baer uses and that's probably what they meant. As I pointed out earlier, there are a ton of different alloys of both carbon steel and stainless steel. I find it highly improbable that EVERY stainless steel alloy expands more than EVERY carbon steel alloy.
 
Fwiw

my understanding (and it is elementary at best and based in sword metallurgy, not firearms), is that the chromium in stainless steels make it more rust resistant but more brittle. firearms stainless steel has less chromium than your average stainless kitchen knife and will rust, so I consider stainless steel firearms more rust resistant than blued, but certainly not "stainless".
 
QUOTE]Any stainless steel will rust if properly coaxed.[/QUOTE]

say what? no offense but that is just not so. there are differant grades of stainless depending on what properties the specific grades contain.
 
Aside from firearms for a moment you might have got things crossed up. There actually is a metal that is stronger when coated, and its aluminum whenever it is anodized the anodizing process actually pulls the molecules in tighter kind of like a hardening process.
 
Stronger? is the wrong question - and define strength if you really want to know

Stronger? is the wrong question - and define strength if you really want to know.

Listed properties for alloys are readily available on the web or in assorted U.S. Government publications which are licensed for general use.

I'd start with the former "MIL-HDBK-5 ® Primary Source of Static Design Allowables for Metallic Materials and Structural Elements (Fasteners) that are Used in the Design of Aircraft and Aerospace Structures" which is now an FAA manual but is available free and free to use in any case.

Pick an alloy and research it. People have lots of odd ideas about alloys especially stainless - the Seattle ferry system went to great deal of effort to refit saltwater plumbing that somebody thought would do well with a simple "stainless" alloy.

As to the use of stainless and heat consider the problems Smith and Wesson had with the gas ring on the early Model 66 revolvers and consider the Model 59 would lock up as the trigger draw bar would bind in heavy range use with aluminum case Blazer that dumped more heat into the frame rather than carry it off. There are stories about some manufacturing errors with stainless Sako barrels recently - and lots of failures for other alloys as well.

In general chrome moly as used in pistols is easier to machine and thus allows a finer fit which results in improved performance and longer wear for target guns. See e.g. Gale McMillan for comments on alloys for barrels.

Myself, my primary carry gun is a stainless 1911 where the fit is a little looser than my secondary gun which is chrome moly 1911 with a paint job but has a stainless barrel. If I ever have the money for a high art gun it will be chrome moly.

Pay your money and take your choice.
 
Who cares? Millions of both have fired billions of rounds... most without failure! NT

No disrespect meant. The typical plusses of blues: cheaper, invisible in the dark... stainless: more expensive (a little) and less maintenance and rust. Doubt if you could even find a record of which blew up more often, if that is the concern...
 
say what? no offense but that is just not so. there are differant grades of stainless depending on what properties the specific grades contain.
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I know of no stainless steel alloys that are entirely corrosion proof. If you know of some that are, please post them.

Thanks.
 
JohnKSa,

I double checked with a friend of mine. He is ranked as a master shooter and really knows his stuff. He was telling me that stainless steel is usually harder to work on, making it difficult to maintain the tight tolerances. He said he prefers non-stainless steel and just keeps them oiled. Hopefully there is a metalurgist on this forum that can explain it to us.

This guy has stuff that would make most of us here drool. While I was impressed with the 3" grouping gaurantees at 50 yds. offered by Les Baer, he was telling me even those guns would need to get sent in to be a match gun. His 1911s are supposed to shoot 1" or better at 50 yds. :eek:
 
Expansion ? the heat conductivity and the coefficient of thermal expansion are different between alloy steel and stainless. That's why S&W had to change the dimensions of the M 66 from those of the alloy steel version.
 
stainless steel is usually harder to work on, making it difficult to maintain the tight tolerances
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Stainless is definitely harder to machine. A lot of custom gun-makers don't use it as a result. I don't have any problem with a custom maker not using stainless due to the machining issues, it's when they start getting too creative with their explanations of why they don't that I start to have some issues. ;)

Although it may be HARDER to machine that certainly doesn't mean one can't maintain very tight tolerances with stainless. http://www.shilen.com/#
Stainless Steel Match Grade Barrels
Simply the finest available to the competitive shooter. Heat-resistant stainless steel generally extends the accuracy life of a barrel over chrome-moly. In addition, stainless steel machines better than any other barrel metal, providing a somewhat higher quality bore surface.
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The issue is one of difficulty, not one affecting the quality of the finished part.
 
Well you don't see them making barrels and cylinders out of Scandium (alloy in aluminum.)

It is all very well to say there are a lot of "blue" and stainless alloys but the firearms industry pretty much sticks to 4xxx chrome moly for the blue guns and 416 for stainless. Alloys whose characteristics are well known.

I recall that one of the wilder custom gunsmiths was sorry when Barsto changed from 410 to 416 stainless for barrels because it reduced the already small safety margin in his hot-loaded guns. Krieger will make you a 410 barrel for a price. There may be some 17-4 stainless out there, it was common a number of years ago. A lot of it in the original Automag for example.
 
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