St Louis Couple Served, AR confiscated

Some reasonable points made there. Also some descriptions of how the poster would handle the situation based on what they imagine it would be like, but not based on specific situational training.
 
forced entry onto their property via a locked gate that was torn down? did this not happen? if it did, how is pointing a firearm at the suspects and telling them to leave not justified?
 
Does not matter that it was justified. The prosecutor there is pandering to the mob, and is also an idiot. (The governor has stated almost as much) I'm wondering about the judge that signed the warrant. Judges should be above that.

Perhaps they are pretending to investigate the 4th degree assault committed by the protesters, and the rifle is somehow material to that. (And it will be lost or destroyed by the police just on general principle)
 
The linked article also claims the pistol the woman was holding was inoperable and was a dummy used in their pursuit of legal action against the gun manufacturer. Which I find to be a delicious bit of irony.

So this guy brought his wife out with a non-functioning gun and allowed her to face an angry mob? I'll watch the legal case unfold, but I think he deserves judgement here.
 
Can one of the attorneys here weigh in how the cops can show at their house with a warrant for the rifle, and they apparently haven't been charged with a crime?!

That seems crazy illegal.
 
ghbucky said:
Can one of the attorneys here weigh in how the cops can show at their house with a warrant for the rifle, and they apparently haven't been charged with a crime?!

That seems crazy illegal.
Search warrants are usually issued and served before an arrest, as part of the investigation. If you follow the news, look at the case of "cult mom" Lori Vallow. A search warrant was issued for her new husband's property. Pursuant to that search warrant, the bodies of her two missing kids were found, buried on the property. Lori Vallow was already in custody on charges relating to child endangerment (or something like that). As a result of the search warrant and the discovery of the bodies, new charges were filed against Vallow, and her husband was charged with several offenses, as well.

No, search warrants do not have to follow an arrest. They are typically part of the investigation. The investigators do have to explain to a judge what they're looking for and where they expect to find it, but this is before an arrest, not after.
 
On a Federal level, go read the 4th Amendment. States may vary slightly, but adhere to the same general principles.

The general point of a search warrant is to search for evidence of a crime. This may and usually is done before charges are filed and arrests made.
 
TXAZ said:
It appears that some have forgotten that their gate was broken by protesters....

There have been multiple reports that, although there was a "No Trespassing" sign at that gate, the gate wasn't actually locked. Moreover, it has been reported that the gate was not broken by the first wave of entering protesters, it was broken later, not to gain entry but just because ...

This is just some reports I have seen. I do not vouch for their veracity.
 
forced entry onto their property via a locked gate that was torn down? did this not happen?
1. There is video that CLEARLY shows the protesters entering through a gate that appears to be undamaged. I've posted it on TFL in post #12 of this thread:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607697

There's no way to know if it was locked or not from the video--they might have broken the lock to enter but, if so, that isn't shown in the video. What is certain is that the damage to the gate that has been shown in pictures very clearly did NOT happen at the time the protesters came through it. Both gates were still on their hinges with no visible damage at the time they walked through.

2. The gate was not a gate to the McCloskey's property, it was a gate to Portland Place, a gated community where the McCloskey's mansion is located. There is no evidence that I am aware of that the protesters ever set foot on the McCloskey's actual property. They were walking down a street (albeit a private street in the gated community) past the McCloskey's property when the incident took place. They were on their way to protest at a different house.

It is certainly possible that the protesters were trespassing. But if they were, it appears that they were trespassing on Portland Place property, not on the McCloskey's property.

It is certainly possible that the protesters broke the lock on the gate to gain entry--since the gate has subsequently been badly damaged it's impossible to know.. But it is clear that the gate was not torn down or visibly damaged at the time of entry.

The protesters certainly did come through the gate (which may or may not have been locked and may or may not have been posted) but doing so doesn't seem to have put them on the McCloskey's property. The gate was to the Portland Place gated community, not specifically to access the McCloskey's property.

Questions:
Is it legal to point a firearm at a person trespassing on someone else's property in MO? I don't know about MO law, but it seems to me that pointing a gun at someone for simply being where they don't belong (i.e. walking across property that's not theirs) is a bit extreme.

Would that trespasser having walked past a no trespassing sign provide justification for pointing a firearm at them in that case? I think that the sign might make it easier to prosecute the trespasser, but the offense would still be a minor one--I'm guessing not the kind of thing that would (in the absence of other evidence) justify assaulting the person with a deadly weapon. And yes, pointing a gun at someone without sufficient justification is assault with a deadly weapon.

Would that trespasser having broken the lock on a gate provide justification for pointing a firearm at them in that case? Maybe? I don't know. Remember, we don't know that the lock was broken to gain entry--that's just supposition. Butl let's assume it was. Now it is no longer just someone walking across property that's not theirs--it's not even just ignoring a sign--they had to actually work to defeat/damage some kind of restraint that made it plain the intent was to exclude them. I think that this is clearly a more serious level of trespass, perhaps if one knew for sure that a trespasser had to break a lock to get where they were, it might be sufficient justification for being somewhat concerned about their own safety than just seeing someone on property where they didn't belong. It might justify the display of firearms--but we'd have to look at MO law to be sure.
No one was shot, no one was shot at, no shots were fired at all.
Threatening someone with a gun is assault with a deadly weapon. In TX, it's called aggravated assault and is a second degree felony even if the weapon is not fired and no one is actually injured.
 
A situation like this is always a can of worms, and specific (and possibly not visible in a video) facts and the precise wording of the laws applied can yield very different legal outcomes from similar seeming situations.

Is it legal to point a weapon at someone trespassing on someone else's property? I don't know. What if the reason is to keep them from coming onto your property?

How does one credibly determine the risk/threat from a mob of protestors? Ok, maybe they broke the gate when they left, but I think it is reasonable to consider what MIGHT have happened if no one had pointed at gun in their direction and told them to go away....

We've got a situation here where neither side's word can be taken at full face value. (not uncommon in these matters) so things have to be investigated.

I can imagine it could be a daunting task, simply just identifying who was actaully there and getting statements from them would be a major task.

Then, determining which, if any, statements is actually factual and true is a whole nother level of investigative work.

I've heard that at least some of the people in the mob have said things to the press, we have no idea what, if anything they are saying to the police.

Will be interesting to see what verifiable information is released and how the legal questions are resolved.
 
ok. since the gate was not damaged by the trespassers, and the trespassing was not on the property of the gun wielders, they [the gun wielders] really stepped in it in my opinion.
 
JohnKSa said:
It is certainly possible that the protesters were trespassing. But if they were, it appears that they were trespassing on Portland Place property, not on the McCloskey's property.
If Portland Place is private property, it has to be owned by someone. Much depends on who that someone is ... or are.

If the entire complex, or neighborhood, is private property, it must be owned by some sort of corporate entity, probably a home owners' association (HOA). Legally, I don't know if that's the same as a condominium, but it may be similar. And, of course, Missouri law isn't necessarily the same as any other state's laws on such matters. That said ...

I lived in a condominium for a number of years, and I eventually became a member of the board of directors. In my professional capacity as an architect, I also worked on a number of condominium projects, and our office worked with attorneys in creating drawings that were required as part of the condominium declaration drawings.

An entire condominium is private property but, within that, there are (at least under my state's laws) three levels of access: inside your unit is a private element; certain areas on the outside of your unit, such as decks and fenced yards, are "limited common elements," meaning they are owned by the association but their use is restricted (limited) to the unit owners; and common elements, which encompasses the roads, parking areas, clubhouse, and any recreational facilities. Common elements may be used by any unit owner.

The point is that, even if Portland Place is a "common element," the McCloskeys are still probably [part] owners of it. Depending on how the condominium or association documents are worded, that may give the McCloskey's the right to tell trespassers to get out.
 
The point is that, even if Portland Place is a "common element," the McCloskeys are still probably [part] owners of it. Depending on how the condominium or association documents are worded, that may give the McCloskey's the right to tell trespassers to get out.

I'll start off saying: I'm not an attorney, I don't play one on TV, and I don't know anything about MO law.

With that said, my understanding of KY 'Stand your ground' law, I am entitled to defend myself in any location where I am legally entitled to be. The 'protesters' were trespassing, and therefore were not protected by the 'Stand your ground' law and would be required to retreat. Again, that is my understanding of how that would work in KY.

[edit] I'll also add that the MO AG apparently has a similar view of the situation given his remarks on the case.
 
Mainah said:
So this guy brought his wife out with a non-functioning gun and allowed her to face an angry mob? I'll watch the legal case unfold, but I think he deserves judgement here.

Well, if true, it was tactically bad judgment. It also removes one of the major elements in threatening someone with a firearm for the only person who was unequivocally pointing her “firearm” at people. So bad tactical choice; but good legal outcome ;)

As far as the warrant goes, you’ve got video pf people pointing a firearm at protesters. So you’ve got probable cause to investigate whether the crime of threatening someone with a firearm goes. Relevant evidence in that crime would be the firearm, including whether it is a functioning firearm.

Now, would many prosecutors and law enforcement personnel be willing to push an investigation this far in this kind of circumstance? Probably not; but there is a legal basis to investigate. And if you are going to pick a fight with a wealthy plaintiff’s lawyer, you’d best be thorough.
 
Well, if true, it was tactically bad judgment. It also removes one of the major elements in threatening someone with a firearm for the only person who was unequivocally pointing her “firearm” at people. So bad tactical choice; but good legal outcome

I'm still looking for any sign of tactical good judgement in this situation. If their goal was hitting the top of the meme charts for a week they certainly accomplished it.
 
I'm still looking for any sign of tactical good judgement in this situation. If their goal was hitting the top of the meme charts for a week they certainly accomplished it.
Nobody got shot, and the angry mob moved on. Their tactics could have been a lot worse. Remember they didn't ask for this; their space was invaded and they called the police, and that worked about as well as you'd expect. Confronting the mob was Plan B, or Plan C. I think they did okay. A little training would help, but how many people have trained for a situation like this? (I haven't)
 
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