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squaring dies
- Thread starter zeke
- Start date
dawg
Good question , they both have slop , die and press are more side to side , the case to shell holder is more up and down . I myself worried more about the thread slop between press and die bottomed on shellholder , when I removed that slop , the case to shellholder self centered . I guess I would go with press to die set up . Good question , makes you think of everything that's going on when sizing . Be Well.
Chris
Good question , they both have slop , die and press are more side to side , the case to shell holder is more up and down . I myself worried more about the thread slop between press and die bottomed on shellholder , when I removed that slop , the case to shellholder self centered . I guess I would go with press to die set up . Good question , makes you think of everything that's going on when sizing . Be Well.
Chris
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@CW I use the standard Oring lock rings on my neck sizing dies but on FL sizing dies I like the Forster lock rings. No thread damage and they lock the die securely.
When I put that case in a shellholder I want the head firmly against the base of the shellholder and no vertical play at all on the die to ensure consistent shoulder setback. Using a Redding body die then a Lee collet for the neck or a Redding S bushing FL die I rarely get runout greater than .001.
I also remove the expander ball, if that case cocks ever so slightly when it is being pulled back through the neck with no support on the sides of the neck it can create runout where there was none before. Or at least that is my theory.
Just a smidgen of unevenness on the case rim could do it since the shellholder is pulling down on the case at that time and the body and neck are unsupported by the walls of the die
When I put that case in a shellholder I want the head firmly against the base of the shellholder and no vertical play at all on the die to ensure consistent shoulder setback. Using a Redding body die then a Lee collet for the neck or a Redding S bushing FL die I rarely get runout greater than .001.
I also remove the expander ball, if that case cocks ever so slightly when it is being pulled back through the neck with no support on the sides of the neck it can create runout where there was none before. Or at least that is my theory.
Just a smidgen of unevenness on the case rim could do it since the shellholder is pulling down on the case at that time and the body and neck are unsupported by the walls of the die
dawg
I wouldn't change a thing if I were you , your getting good results no more then .001 and mostly better . The bushing dies ( Redding S type bushing dies ) didn't work out for me , even when sizing it two steps neck first then full as the instructions if neck were over .003 or 4 off the top of my head . Bare in mind I'm not using the best brass . While I have your ear . Looking at a Colt Series 70 Government model in 45acp that I inherited from my Uncle , it looks like the ejector is broke , looking through the pistol with the slide back magazine out no extractor tip . Slide off the extractor is flush with the front of the extractor base , that can't be right . Have you changed one ?
Chris
I wouldn't change a thing if I were you , your getting good results no more then .001 and mostly better . The bushing dies ( Redding S type bushing dies ) didn't work out for me , even when sizing it two steps neck first then full as the instructions if neck were over .003 or 4 off the top of my head . Bare in mind I'm not using the best brass . While I have your ear . Looking at a Colt Series 70 Government model in 45acp that I inherited from my Uncle , it looks like the ejector is broke , looking through the pistol with the slide back magazine out no extractor tip . Slide off the extractor is flush with the front of the extractor base , that can't be right . Have you changed one ?
Chris
Fraid not CW, when I was playing with pistols it was 9mm CZ's for the most part. Only time I ever messed with a Colt was in the service and that wasonly taking them apart and cleaning them. I bet someone on here has though, you might want to make a thread in the smithy forum or pistol forum
I swear I think I am morphing into another poster here but what confuses me is how anyone could have a problem if they are starting with quality cases. If they are using second class or range pickup then don't expect top shelf results. You are not going to be able to turn range pickup into match cases easily. It can probably be done but that would take more talent than I have so I just buy match grade cases to start with
I am not doing anything fancy to my cases. Depin, resize with with either body and neck die or Fl with the bushing die, wash with pins for 2-3 hours, trim, and give a light chamfer and deburr to all cases. That's it. I can seat the bullet on my RCBS or with a arbor and a inline die and no difference.
Fanciest I get is dipping the necks in Imperial dry lube before seating. Messy as heck but it seems to make seating smoother and if nothing else that is a psychological boost when shooting. Don't scratch your cheek when loading with it or you will look like a football player or a goth musician. Don't ask me how I know that, gave the wife a good laugh and she called me rocky raccoon the rest of the day
I swear I think I am morphing into another poster here but what confuses me is how anyone could have a problem if they are starting with quality cases. If they are using second class or range pickup then don't expect top shelf results. You are not going to be able to turn range pickup into match cases easily. It can probably be done but that would take more talent than I have so I just buy match grade cases to start with
I am not doing anything fancy to my cases. Depin, resize with with either body and neck die or Fl with the bushing die, wash with pins for 2-3 hours, trim, and give a light chamfer and deburr to all cases. That's it. I can seat the bullet on my RCBS or with a arbor and a inline die and no difference.
Fanciest I get is dipping the necks in Imperial dry lube before seating. Messy as heck but it seems to make seating smoother and if nothing else that is a psychological boost when shooting. Don't scratch your cheek when loading with it or you will look like a football player or a goth musician. Don't ask me how I know that, gave the wife a good laugh and she called me rocky raccoon the rest of the day
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dawg
I wouldn't get my brass from the floor , I get all my brass from a shooting buddy that only shoots store bought in match ammo Federal and HSM match ,even though it's fired first in his rifle , I full size anyway . I'm on the same page as you , wet tumble with SS Pins 2 - 3 hours , full size , tried the dry lube on the inside of the necks , makes seating very smooth . I ordered two ejectors from Brownells , doesn't seem to hard to change . Will post it on the gunsmithing section . Always good talking to you , Be Well.
Chris
I wouldn't get my brass from the floor , I get all my brass from a shooting buddy that only shoots store bought in match ammo Federal and HSM match ,even though it's fired first in his rifle , I full size anyway . I'm on the same page as you , wet tumble with SS Pins 2 - 3 hours , full size , tried the dry lube on the inside of the necks , makes seating very smooth . I ordered two ejectors from Brownells , doesn't seem to hard to change . Will post it on the gunsmithing section . Always good talking to you , Be Well.
Chris
reynolds357
New member
I loaded a pile of 308 brass (excuse me 7.62x51) that were fired full auto. Never had a run out issue, but I double process size them. Fl die then small base die. (Too many of them get stuck going straight to the small base die.)if anyone came up to me at the range and complained about how bad thier bullet run out was and then told me they were using once fired cases from a full auto I would just look at them and say Well No **** Sherlock! Does not take a degree from MIT to figure that one out
scatterbrain
New member
Where Does TIR Come From?
I've been following this post all the way, and have learned how to properly square my dies, etc. All good info.
But, have any of you ever taken the sizing stem out of your RCBS, Lee, Hornady or Redding die and checked the TIR on a full length sized die? I've done about 6 different calibers this way, with brass of all mixes and useage, and find NO TIR on MY samples. Is somithing else responsible for TIR?
(Just waiting on the storm)
I've been following this post all the way, and have learned how to properly square my dies, etc. All good info.
But, have any of you ever taken the sizing stem out of your RCBS, Lee, Hornady or Redding die and checked the TIR on a full length sized die? I've done about 6 different calibers this way, with brass of all mixes and useage, and find NO TIR on MY samples. Is somithing else responsible for TIR?
(Just waiting on the storm)
dawg
That reminds of when I was overseas the skinny guys were tunnel rats , saw some of my friends a few years back , when I saw him after many years , he said the only tunnel he could fit in now was the Holland Tunnel . Resizing auto brass you have to be pretty desperate or don't know any better . That's why I only get it from my friend , he only shoots benchrest also . Range brass could be from reloaders that fired it for the last time , how would you know how many firings . Wet tumbling brass looks new anyway .
I get 3 different brands from him , FC , HSM and ADI good but not the best.
That reminds of when I was overseas the skinny guys were tunnel rats , saw some of my friends a few years back , when I saw him after many years , he said the only tunnel he could fit in now was the Holland Tunnel . Resizing auto brass you have to be pretty desperate or don't know any better . That's why I only get it from my friend , he only shoots benchrest also . Range brass could be from reloaders that fired it for the last time , how would you know how many firings . Wet tumbling brass looks new anyway .
I get 3 different brands from him , FC , HSM and ADI good but not the best.
I loaded a pile of 308 brass (excuse me 7.62x51) that were fired full auto. Never had a run out issue, but I double process size them. Fl die then small base die. (Too many of them get stuck going straight to the small base die.)
reynolds357 is offline
Thanks, now if I ever have a need to know how to I will be able to. I would think the ejection cycle would chew the heck out of the rims and bang up case walls even more than the semi auto's do. My bolt gun's cases are treated with velvet gloves in comparison to gas guns of any sort.
Only place I use range pickup LC is in my AR 15's and the are plinkers loaded from a throw with bulk bullets on a progressive. Not exactly premium ammo in any way shape or form, but sure as heck is fun to shoot
I swear I think I am morphing into another poster here but......
Dawg, now that is funny
scatterbrain
New member
CW
Cw, edit die to be case, might change the post.
Cw, edit die to be case, might change the post.
scatterbrain
New member
Total Indicator Reaading
This is the term used to indicate how much something is out of round with the axis such as coupling alignment on machinery. If the indicator is zeroed at a point, the needle will move below zero and above zero as the Dial Indicator is rotated about the shaft, the plus reading and the minus reading are added together to give Total Indicator Reading. We do the same thing to check the alignment of the neck to the two support points on the body of the case, and again after setting the bullet.
My point to this was that there seems to be more influence of the sizing button on the alignment of the case than the squareing of the die. I anneal my cases often and get uniform dimensions from my shot cases, and my resized cases. I measure four times in the loading process. BUT, I was getting random runout on small caliber cases. That's when I experimented on sizing without the button in the die. I have removed all buttons from my dies and use mandrels to size for the bullet, now 90% are within .0005 and the remaning are with in .0015.
Why do I not use bushing dies? I use brass that is not consistant on neck thickness, and don't want to.
This is the term used to indicate how much something is out of round with the axis such as coupling alignment on machinery. If the indicator is zeroed at a point, the needle will move below zero and above zero as the Dial Indicator is rotated about the shaft, the plus reading and the minus reading are added together to give Total Indicator Reading. We do the same thing to check the alignment of the neck to the two support points on the body of the case, and again after setting the bullet.
My point to this was that there seems to be more influence of the sizing button on the alignment of the case than the squareing of the die. I anneal my cases often and get uniform dimensions from my shot cases, and my resized cases. I measure four times in the loading process. BUT, I was getting random runout on small caliber cases. That's when I experimented on sizing without the button in the die. I have removed all buttons from my dies and use mandrels to size for the bullet, now 90% are within .0005 and the remaning are with in .0015.
Why do I not use bushing dies? I use brass that is not consistant on neck thickness, and don't want to.
And I was told everyone knew what the other was talking about therefore it did not matter if the correct term was used. I use the term JIC and then I fill in the blank minds of those that have no clue by adding 'just in case' in parenthesis. Before that there was a reloader that claimed the case had head space and all tools were head space gages like the case head space gage. It matter not the manufacturer of the case gage named the case gage 'A case gage' for over 70 years.
And then they labeled the case gage as a drop in gage. Me? NO, I used a straight edge and a feeler gage set to get accuracy down to .001". I also added an attachment with a dial indicator, that was when things really picked up and accuracy improved. Others? They are still stuck on the ideal the case gage is a case head space gage because they still believe the case has head space.
And I never believed it was SAAMIs fault because they meant to say the case had head space and they forgot to use the head space symbol in their case drawings.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
And then they labeled the case gage as a drop in gage. Me? NO, I used a straight edge and a feeler gage set to get accuracy down to .001". I also added an attachment with a dial indicator, that was when things really picked up and accuracy improved. Others? They are still stuck on the ideal the case gage is a case head space gage because they still believe the case has head space.
And I never believed it was SAAMIs fault because they meant to say the case had head space and they forgot to use the head space symbol in their case drawings.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
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scatterbrain
New member
My tool of choice for checking alignment was a 6'' slide rule and a feeler gauge. Then when digital came along I had to use a Dial Indicator because noone knew what a slide rule was.