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squaring dies
- Thread starter zeke
- Start date
reynolds357
New member
Assuming your press is not bent or drilled wrong, how would they be out of square?
Cumulative tolerance errors can lead to small amounts of misalignment. Say, for example, threads on the die aren't perfectly coaxial with the interior profile, or the milling of the slot in the shell holder isn't perfectly parallel with the deck.
Zeke,
The only approach I know of is to float the die or die parts or the case so they self-align their axes. The Forster Co-ax press does this. The seating stem in the Redding Competition seating die does this. There are other tricks, like using a rubber o-ring under the locking nut to let a die tilt just a little in the threads if it wants to, or rotating a case several times while starting seating in very small increments.
Zeke,
The only approach I know of is to float the die or die parts or the case so they self-align their axes. The Forster Co-ax press does this. The seating stem in the Redding Competition seating die does this. There are other tricks, like using a rubber o-ring under the locking nut to let a die tilt just a little in the threads if it wants to, or rotating a case several times while starting seating in very small increments.
I want all my setup to have the die bottom out on the shell holder , removes any slack in the threads . What I find that helps even more is I use a 7/8 O Ring between the press and the lock ring , even though it's screwed down tight I feel it will self center when the case is inserted in the die . I do this with all my dies . Works for me .
I just have experience, not an opinion. The first RCBS press I purchased (JR) was way out of alignment between the ram and the threads. I had to square the dies or a pistol case wouldn’t even enter a sizing die. And this was back in the early-70s when RCBS was a better company not owned by Omark or ATK.Just my opinion, I believe the OP is looking for a solution to a non problem. I don't believe any press manufacturer is letting equipment go out the door that far out of spec.
After a few years I got tired of the hassle and mailed the press back - they sent me a brand new upgraded press. Sadly, I have had to send far too many items back to RCBS in the years since, from warped dies to poorly machined shell holders. I seldom buy their products anymore.
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After a few years I got tired of the hassle and mailed the press back - they sent me a brand new upgraded press. Sadly, I have had to send far too many items back to RCBS in the years since, from warped dies to poorly machined shell holders. I seldom buy their products anymore.
My experience? My opinion? Too many reloaders do not know and or understand what they are looking at. I say the Rock Chucker is not a cam over press; other reloaders say "YES IT IS!" and that is all they know about Rock Chucker Presses.
I made a few tools for determining press alignment with the press, die and shell holder. I do not find it necessary to explain the function of the tools because reloaders do not understand the RCBS Rock Chucker is a non cam over press and when the ram is raised the linkage goes into a bind. The bind forces the ram forward at the top and back at the bottom.
I understand most of this is my problem; I can not get reloaders to turn their presses upside down to check its operation. And then there is that thing about motivating a reloader ro remove their hands from the key board, get out of the comfortable office chair when crawling beneath the reloading table.
F. Guffey
you guys ever notice the shell holder has several thousandths of float in it ? The case floats in the shell holder and the shell holder floats in the ram. If it didn't you would destroy your case when FL resizing unless the case was perfectly aligned
You don't have to take my word for it just put a case in the shellholder, wiggle it. On a coax both case and the dies floats
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If you are really sweating the alignment get a 50 dollar wilson seating die and a 100 dollar arbor press. My experiance is it does not seat any better than my RCBS but you do get a lot more feel.
Some would freak out that I seat my bullets on match .260 ammo using a .308 seating die but when I bought the .260 barrel money was tight and it was a Forest micrometer so I thought what the heck and tried it, Other than the neck the 2 cases are the same anyway and I get less than .0015 runout 99% of the time.
Even on the Wilson in line dies the neck has some float but I do like that "feel" you get from the arbor. I don't have micrometers adjustable inline dies though. I went full scale hillbilly and make a "dummy" round seated on my RCBS with the micrometer dies I already own to seat the first round. I seat it to jam depth. Put that in the inline die in, adjust the stem to where it is flush on the case holder. Insert a fresh case and a bullet then use the depth stem on your calipers to get the depth the caseholder, write it down and I can use the datum to adjust the die stem for that bullet
You don't have to take my word for it just put a case in the shellholder, wiggle it. On a coax both case and the dies floats
edit-
If you are really sweating the alignment get a 50 dollar wilson seating die and a 100 dollar arbor press. My experiance is it does not seat any better than my RCBS but you do get a lot more feel.
Some would freak out that I seat my bullets on match .260 ammo using a .308 seating die but when I bought the .260 barrel money was tight and it was a Forest micrometer so I thought what the heck and tried it, Other than the neck the 2 cases are the same anyway and I get less than .0015 runout 99% of the time.
Even on the Wilson in line dies the neck has some float but I do like that "feel" you get from the arbor. I don't have micrometers adjustable inline dies though. I went full scale hillbilly and make a "dummy" round seated on my RCBS with the micrometer dies I already own to seat the first round. I seat it to jam depth. Put that in the inline die in, adjust the stem to where it is flush on the case holder. Insert a fresh case and a bullet then use the depth stem on your calipers to get the depth the caseholder, write it down and I can use the datum to adjust the die stem for that bullet
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I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .
If you knew the difference between a cam over press and a non cam over press when talking about presses you would mention the make/model/brand of the press.
Like I said; "What does that mean? I knew when I asked I would not get an answer or the answer I got would sound like we were starting over.
F. Guffey
Guffey
The question came after your post on the ChargeMaster , so the press I'm using is the single stage ChargeMaster . I never had to came over my cases , maybe I'm just lucky . But my question was what causes the case to have a cam over , chamber out of spec or die problem . What does it matter what press is used . Sorry for making things so complicated Guff.
Sorry to stray off topic
Chris
The question came after your post on the ChargeMaster , so the press I'm using is the single stage ChargeMaster . I never had to came over my cases , maybe I'm just lucky . But my question was what causes the case to have a cam over , chamber out of spec or die problem . What does it matter what press is used . Sorry for making things so complicated Guff.
Sorry to stray off topic
Chris
locknloader
New member
@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?
@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?
I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .
CW308 claims has never had to cam over when sizing. Cam over is a function of the press, there are cam over presses and there are presses that do not cam over. I have at least 11 Herter presses, all of my Herter presses cam over. I am now down to 3 Rock Chucker presses; none of my Rock Chucker presses cam over. I did modify one Rock Chucker (many years ago) to cam over. I modified the press to cam over to reduce misalignment meaning the press misaligned when the ram was raised.
I made a tool to check alignment between the ram, die and press. Raising the ram misaligned the ram with the die/press, there was nothing I could do about the problem; it was a given.
And then there is cam over; if the press cams over the amount of cam over can be measured in thousandths. I have had 6 Rock Chuckers; not one of the 6 Rock Chuckers would cam over.
F. Guffey
Just wondering if anyone squares up their dies (rifle and pistol) when sizing or seating bullets. If ya do, is there a certain way ya do it?
I made an alignment tool; I did not invent the tool but I have made many repairs to stationary equipment, I understand no one knows what that means but there are times it is easier, takes less time and saves money to send the machinist to a remote area to make repairs than it is to haul heavy equipment to a shop.
So I have tools that must be aligned before drilling begins and their are seating surfaces etc. that must align. And then there are tools that check for contact between two seating surfaces. It is not my job to convince anyone it can be done.
And then there was Jimmy Dean, 16 tons, Lubbock, Texas and sausage in the morning. It seems his fan were always bothered by road kill. It bothered them because there were so many opossums 'skunk dead in the middle of the road'. When asked he always found time to explain to them about the opossums.
Jimmy told his fans that is the reason the chicken crossed the road. He said the chicken crossed the road to show the opossum it could be done.
F. Guffey
Obviously you’ve not spent much time visiting patients in mental hospitals.@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?
j/k. The communication skills of a member are not a prerequisite to join TFL.
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Just went over and measured the play in my shell holder. Lateral play is .010 on the X axis and the front is open to allow the case to be inserted. Vertical on the case rim is also .010. The case holder itself is held in place with a spring in a oversize slot so there is a good deal of play there also. I didn't measure it but you can rattle the case holder in the slot with your fingers. Probably around .010 again if not a tad more
Anyone who thinks their case or case holder is perfectly aligned to the die at the beginning of the stroke has less mechanical ability than my old orange shop cat. That's to say not very much, I been training that cat for 14 years now and he still can't tell the difference between a phillips head and a straight blade. Once the case enters the die it will be close enough to get it started into the die and the die walls will guide the case into alignment, the press does nothing but provide a vertical force
For anyone to claim they align their press is almost as ridiculous as claiming the ram does anything except go up and down. BTW for those doing the so called camover stuff. Don't. All you will accomplish is to place unnecessary stress on the linkage.
Anyone who thinks their case or case holder is perfectly aligned to the die at the beginning of the stroke has less mechanical ability than my old orange shop cat. That's to say not very much, I been training that cat for 14 years now and he still can't tell the difference between a phillips head and a straight blade. Once the case enters the die it will be close enough to get it started into the die and the die walls will guide the case into alignment, the press does nothing but provide a vertical force
For anyone to claim they align their press is almost as ridiculous as claiming the ram does anything except go up and down. BTW for those doing the so called camover stuff. Don't. All you will accomplish is to place unnecessary stress on the linkage.
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