Spray and Pray benefits?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
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pickpocket
New member
Robin - Semper Fi, mac.
yup. In fact, that was one of the deciding factors during the fight for the chateau of Hougoumont at the battle of Waterloo. The Brits held back the numerically superior French at the chateau - which was strategically located on the flank of the battlefield - with their practice of fire discipline.
yup. In fact, that was one of the deciding factors during the fight for the chateau of Hougoumont at the battle of Waterloo. The Brits held back the numerically superior French at the chateau - which was strategically located on the flank of the battlefield - with their practice of fire discipline.
pickpocket
New member
You're missing the point. Yes, I recieved fire where I couldn't tell which building it was coming from....but what are you going to do? Put a SABLE round through some random houses?
No, we reacted accordingly, maintained cover, switched into bounding overwatch mode, and looked for the guy(s) to screw up and show himself.
If we KNEW which house it was, or if I saw the guy take another shot, I put an AT-4 into it or we'd kick the door in because the guy who leaned out of the window and shot at me just guranteed that his house was now considered hostile. But I can tell you that no one shot into a house that wasn't ID'd as hostile.
One of the harder things to deal with was the fact that guys would cache weapons in a house, shoot at us when we approached. We would react, close in on the house, but by that time they would have slipped out the back, mingled with the running crowd, and locate themselves in another house with another cache. Even in that situation we couldn't very well level a house without ID'ing a muzzle flash or a hostile target.
My point is that it's a dynamic decision making process, it never stops....you can't always say that collateral damage is ok, you can't always say that non-combatant casualties are justified.
No, we reacted accordingly, maintained cover, switched into bounding overwatch mode, and looked for the guy(s) to screw up and show himself.
If we KNEW which house it was, or if I saw the guy take another shot, I put an AT-4 into it or we'd kick the door in because the guy who leaned out of the window and shot at me just guranteed that his house was now considered hostile. But I can tell you that no one shot into a house that wasn't ID'd as hostile.
One of the harder things to deal with was the fact that guys would cache weapons in a house, shoot at us when we approached. We would react, close in on the house, but by that time they would have slipped out the back, mingled with the running crowd, and locate themselves in another house with another cache. Even in that situation we couldn't very well level a house without ID'ing a muzzle flash or a hostile target.
My point is that it's a dynamic decision making process, it never stops....you can't always say that collateral damage is ok, you can't always say that non-combatant casualties are justified.
Pickpocket said it and I agree a hundred percent.
I have been in one "extended firefight" when ammo got short, and it is a scary feeling. Especially when it starts to get dark, and you know they won't send a re-supply chopper in, in the dark.
I never went into the bush again without at least two extra bandoliers of ammunition, and the extra weight didn't bother me in the least.
Semper Fi,
Walter
L 3/26
L 3/1
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Reminds me of the platoon cut off at "the knoll", as depicted in "We Were Soldiers Once". Chilling stuff.
Walther
Iraq ain't Vietnam, the closest US forces came to running out of ammo was when elements of TF Grizzly (5th Marines) reached the outskirts of Baghdad and their lead element 2nd Tanks went red on 5.56 near Al Takawaya. However at that fight it was notable that a reinforced tank battalion destroyed most of a republican guard division (I believe it was the Medina, reinforced with allot of foreign fighters).
Iraq ain't Vietnam, the closest US forces came to running out of ammo was when elements of TF Grizzly (5th Marines) reached the outskirts of Baghdad and their lead element 2nd Tanks went red on 5.56 near Al Takawaya. However at that fight it was notable that a reinforced tank battalion destroyed most of a republican guard division (I believe it was the Medina, reinforced with allot of foreign fighters).
pickpocket
New member
Did they re-establish TF Grizzly for OIF? The only TF Grizzly that I know of operated parallel to TF Ripper in Desert Storm/Shield, and it was Ripper that 1/5 belonged to.
What was Grizzly's AO?
I also don't remember an Al Takawaya in the NE sector of Baghdad....do you remember where it was?
I think what we're all trying to say is that there's no REAL reason to validate Spray & Pray as being tactically advantageous.... it only promotes poor fire discipline, bad conservation of ammunition, and zero PID of your target. Not saying that there's NEVER a time when it might be useful, just that its application is severely limited.
If I interpret your continual opposing stance, I can only assume that you believe spray & pray to be a valid and useful tactic. If the thread wanders any further the Staff will probably boot it to General.
What was Grizzly's AO?
I also don't remember an Al Takawaya in the NE sector of Baghdad....do you remember where it was?
I think what we're all trying to say is that there's no REAL reason to validate Spray & Pray as being tactically advantageous.... it only promotes poor fire discipline, bad conservation of ammunition, and zero PID of your target. Not saying that there's NEVER a time when it might be useful, just that its application is severely limited.
If I interpret your continual opposing stance, I can only assume that you believe spray & pray to be a valid and useful tactic. If the thread wanders any further the Staff will probably boot it to General.
TFs Ripper, Inchon and Grizzly (and Tarawa for 2nd MEB) were all in use for OIF I. The battle was at the SE side of Baghdad (I believe it was on highway 5 prior to going north on the east side of Baghdad), it was when 2nd Tanks took most of their losses for OIF I. You probably remember seeing Capt Houston's burnt out M1 in the intersection of two roads.
Jack Malloy
New member
Technicaly I am not a big fan of "Spray and Pray" but I did use suppressive fire once to keep a bad guys head down while myself and a friend got to safety.
It worked. Im alive. He's alive.
I really don;'t want to go into detail on this, but basically, I laid down a volley of fire with a 1911 while my pal retreated, then he laid down some fire with a .38 while I retreated and we kept doing that till we could get to safety and contact law enforcement.
If it works, do it.
You are better off using aimed fire, whenever possible.
A shot from an alley, or in my case, from a booby trapped marijuana field, you may not be able to see who is shooting at first, just the general direction of the muzzle flash and the smoke.
It worked. Im alive. He's alive.
I really don;'t want to go into detail on this, but basically, I laid down a volley of fire with a 1911 while my pal retreated, then he laid down some fire with a .38 while I retreated and we kept doing that till we could get to safety and contact law enforcement.
If it works, do it.
You are better off using aimed fire, whenever possible.
A shot from an alley, or in my case, from a booby trapped marijuana field, you may not be able to see who is shooting at first, just the general direction of the muzzle flash and the smoke.
Mr. Malloy, there are always exceptions...
We could sit together and think of several scenarios justifying the use of 'overwhelming firepower', which is militarese for 'spray and pray'. However, in daily life, there are far more scenarios where between one and three properly placed shots will grant victory.
You were in such an exception, you formulated a plan and you survived. Well done!
Doug...
As mentioned, Gaylord's book is from the 1950s - and New York City. Both law enforcement and the public seemed more - understanding (?) - of random shooting by police. I have contact with a number of federal agencies and several state and local agencies. Most of them are not 'understanding' of shots fired at all; only grudgingly permissive of directed shots at those posing an immediate danger to the officer or public. None of them allow warning shots, or any other discharge not specifically directed. Shooting an innocent bystander is at best a career stopper.
In short, this is not an appropriate technique.
After reading Gaylord, I direct your attention to:
Cooper's Complete Book of Modern Handgunning, which, despite the grandiose name is pretty good, although dated in terms of new weaponry.
Sixguns by Elmer Keith. Also dated, but read his comments on stopping a car in Washington D. C.
Anything by the late Skeeter Skelton. He was probably the most well rounded of all the lawman gun writers of the '60s - '70s.
We could sit together and think of several scenarios justifying the use of 'overwhelming firepower', which is militarese for 'spray and pray'. However, in daily life, there are far more scenarios where between one and three properly placed shots will grant victory.
You were in such an exception, you formulated a plan and you survived. Well done!
Doug...
As mentioned, Gaylord's book is from the 1950s - and New York City. Both law enforcement and the public seemed more - understanding (?) - of random shooting by police. I have contact with a number of federal agencies and several state and local agencies. Most of them are not 'understanding' of shots fired at all; only grudgingly permissive of directed shots at those posing an immediate danger to the officer or public. None of them allow warning shots, or any other discharge not specifically directed. Shooting an innocent bystander is at best a career stopper.
In short, this is not an appropriate technique.
After reading Gaylord, I direct your attention to:
Cooper's Complete Book of Modern Handgunning, which, despite the grandiose name is pretty good, although dated in terms of new weaponry.
Sixguns by Elmer Keith. Also dated, but read his comments on stopping a car in Washington D. C.
Anything by the late Skeeter Skelton. He was probably the most well rounded of all the lawman gun writers of the '60s - '70s.
Jack Malloy, thats called breaking contact, replace you and your friend each with a fire team, and thats pretty much how it's done. I suppose it would be good to put a couple of rounds "downrange" before retreating could be a good idea, but if you chose to stay and fight, please don't waste your ammo.