I was reading Chic Gaylords chapter on Alley Cleaning and it seems there can be at times a tactic to Spray and Pray. The tactic is recommended best with a semi auto like a 1911 A-1 (the book was written before speedloaders). It involves watching for a muzzel flash in a dark alley (or similar situation) and then responding by rapid firing your entire gun around a certain radius of where you saw the muzzel flash. The bullet spread will likely hit your target. In case it doesn't you have a magazine to slam into your gun (or speedloader to drop in if you a revolver carrier). Interesting tactic.
Spray and Pray benefits?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
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Sir William
New member
In a war, maybe. The reality is that you are visible with YOUR muzzle flash, you are expending ammunition that might be needed, the round fired at you may just be a decoy technique and you will be focused on a solitary target when there may just be multiple targets. ONLY shoot at identified and visually confirmed targets.
Yup, in combat, it's called "suppressive fire", or "go ahead and give 'em some"...In other words, dump rounds in their direction to keep their heads down...Thus the term "fire and maneuver", etc...
Kinda scary for civvy application, as you are held accountable for EVERY round your fire and where it ends up
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Kinda scary for civvy application, as you are held accountable for EVERY round your fire and where it ends up
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Marko Kloos
Inactive
You are financially, legally and morally responsible for every round that leaves the barrel of your gun.
pickpocket
New member
Even in a war, if you are properly trained, spray and pray is never really a solution. As a Marine, I trained my boys that if you're not aiming at something, then you're not really suppressing anything, now are you? Suppressive fire also does not mean 'expend all rounds'...no, it means you put the appropriate amount of rounds downrange to fix the enemy in place and to make it really difficult for them to leverage effective fire at your maneuver element. If you don't see something or aren't aimed in...don't shoot. You have to watch your ammo levels even closer in an extended firefight...don't think I'd ever want to be caught with my pants down. 
Now, I won't say that there weren't times when a few machine guns weren't laying down walls of lead in order to do that, but all in all, every man is accountable for every round that leaves his weapon.
In modern times - knowing what we know now of tactical employment of personal weapons systems and movement, fire, cover, concealment - I don't believe there is ever reallyan appropriate time for spray&pray. You do not fire unless you have PID, you do not fire unless you are aware of what's behind the target, and most importantly, you do not fire unless you know what you are shooting at.
If you're clearing alleys and such....well we have handy little things called grenades, which work exponentially better!
Now, I won't say that there weren't times when a few machine guns weren't laying down walls of lead in order to do that, but all in all, every man is accountable for every round that leaves his weapon.
In modern times - knowing what we know now of tactical employment of personal weapons systems and movement, fire, cover, concealment - I don't believe there is ever reallyan appropriate time for spray&pray. You do not fire unless you have PID, you do not fire unless you are aware of what's behind the target, and most importantly, you do not fire unless you know what you are shooting at.
If you're clearing alleys and such....well we have handy little things called grenades, which work exponentially better!
+1 for Pickpocket. Supression fire, or spray and pray should at least be toward the enemy's position or suspected position. Spray and Pray seems to only benefit military war zones and not civilian situations, especially Civilain with a handgun in an urban environment and even more so with a lower capacity 1911. Spray and pray with a 30 round Assault rifle...OK...with a 17 round 9mm maybe....with a 8 round 1911...you could find yourself in a bad situation with an empty gun.
Chic Gaylord's book was written in the 1950s. The chances of multiple assailants, etc., etc., were pretty close to nil. The general public feeling back then was that if you were in an alley, with someone shooting at the police, and you got yourself shot, too bad.
Times have changed. Yet, I really doubt that too many bad guys are going to "decoy" the cops. The idea of shooting towards the muzzle flash, and shooting a measured amount of times, can still be useful. You'd be surprised how many "gangstas" just stand there to watch you fall.
We all have great reasons to not do something, but I wonder how many truly would follow them as closely in combat as they do in armchairs. Tell me how many wouldn't put a couple of rounds through the wall, next to where the guy keeps popping out to shoot at you.
Times have changed. Yet, I really doubt that too many bad guys are going to "decoy" the cops. The idea of shooting towards the muzzle flash, and shooting a measured amount of times, can still be useful. You'd be surprised how many "gangstas" just stand there to watch you fall.
We all have great reasons to not do something, but I wonder how many truly would follow them as closely in combat as they do in armchairs. Tell me how many wouldn't put a couple of rounds through the wall, next to where the guy keeps popping out to shoot at you.
pickpocket
New member
Good point.
Don't forget, your best chance of walking away from a firefight is to stay calm and make reasonable decisions.
When it's time, you're going to automatically revert to training...so train well, and train smart. When you need it, it will be there.
Mr Gaylord was a fine shot and holster designer but leaves a bit to be desired in practical application at times.
Spray and pray? Recognisance by gunfire isn't exactly a good urban self defense tactic. Something to be done with a belt fed auto in a war not a handgun in an alley.
Sam
Sam
Spray and pray? Recognisance by gunfire isn't exactly a good urban self defense tactic. Something to be done with a belt fed auto in a war not a handgun in an alley.
Sam
Sam
losvaqueros
New member
stay out of the alley
Pick pocket
Rounds are cheap, our Marines lives are very valuable. I would rather send allot of bullets prior to sending one of my Marines into anything. Suppression is any area function, it can be a large object area that needs to be suppressed, with no visible targets beyond an ADDRAC of something something similar to 1st squad suppress the white building at the sustained rate. Since the enemy often wants to hide, they aren't visible targets to obtain PID on. Accountability for every round sounds nice, but it's not the reality. There is a reason we call it collateral damage, because we would rather have an alive Marine and have accidentally shot a non-combatant in vicinity of the enemy, than to have allot of dead Marines for fear of hitting an unintended target. Additionally it goes back to intent, if a Marines was doing the right thing and makes a mistake, nothing is going to happen because of a dead non-combatant.
Rounds are cheap, our Marines lives are very valuable. I would rather send allot of bullets prior to sending one of my Marines into anything. Suppression is any area function, it can be a large object area that needs to be suppressed, with no visible targets beyond an ADDRAC of something something similar to 1st squad suppress the white building at the sustained rate. Since the enemy often wants to hide, they aren't visible targets to obtain PID on. Accountability for every round sounds nice, but it's not the reality. There is a reason we call it collateral damage, because we would rather have an alive Marine and have accidentally shot a non-combatant in vicinity of the enemy, than to have allot of dead Marines for fear of hitting an unintended target. Additionally it goes back to intent, if a Marines was doing the right thing and makes a mistake, nothing is going to happen because of a dead non-combatant.
The British Soldier
New member
We have a difference in doctrine that goes to the core of the differing armed forces that we have. For centuries the British Army has been disciplined to fire aimed shots, rather than large volumes of fire. That is probably a core reason why we have only, very recently, been given a weapon with an automatic capability for individual use.
It was said that during the Boer War, the red coated soldiers there fired accuarately out to 2,000 metres; unfortunately the Boers were pretty good shots themselves [actually the result of good British marksmanship training!] and that was the final campaign that soldiers wore bright red [come shoot me] uniforms. Following on with the issue of the Lee Enfield rifle, the enemy often thought that they were being fired on by machine gun companies; because the soldiers developed a style of shooting that involved using the second finger on the trigger and thumb and index to cycle the bolt. A flick of the wrist and the bolt was cycled.
I don't think spray and pray is any use at all; better to put accurate consistent fire into the target and put it down, whether with a rifle or a pistol. Of course in the urban environment one is legally bound to make sure the rounds are accounted for carefully.
It was said that during the Boer War, the red coated soldiers there fired accuarately out to 2,000 metres; unfortunately the Boers were pretty good shots themselves [actually the result of good British marksmanship training!] and that was the final campaign that soldiers wore bright red [come shoot me] uniforms. Following on with the issue of the Lee Enfield rifle, the enemy often thought that they were being fired on by machine gun companies; because the soldiers developed a style of shooting that involved using the second finger on the trigger and thumb and index to cycle the bolt. A flick of the wrist and the bolt was cycled.
I don't think spray and pray is any use at all; better to put accurate consistent fire into the target and put it down, whether with a rifle or a pistol. Of course in the urban environment one is legally bound to make sure the rounds are accounted for carefully.
pickpocket
New member
If you're not shooting AT something, then what exactly are you supressing? Suppression, by the maneuver warfare school of thought, is to fix the enemy in place or to prevent the enemy from effectively bringing direct fire to bear on your maneuver element. If the enemy is neither taking effective shots at you nor attempting to move...why would you attempt to gain superiority of fire?
Sustained does not mean cyclic. 10 rounds per minute would be considered sustained, would it not?
Once again, if they're hiding, what exactly are you supressing?
No argument about rather having my Marines alive....but that's not why we call it collateral damage. As always: time, mission, and situation dictate.
To act or not act for fear of hitting non-combatants is sometimes acceptable and sometimes is not. To not CARE about hitting non-combatants is NEVER acceptable.
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The British Soldier
New member
You're right - I'd better go and get my red tunic ironed!
pickpocket
New member
Bloody Redcoats... 
But really, I think it's stayed relatively on-topic in terms of whether or not Spray & Pray is effective...which was the point of it all
But really, I think it's stayed relatively on-topic in terms of whether or not Spray & Pray is effective...which was the point of it all