Sporter rifles for sniping purposes - Tactical analysis?

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Dave3006

New member
I know the trend is towards heavier and heavier rifles for military sniper purposes. I just saw the new sniper rifle for the Army. The thing weighs 18 lbs.

I am curious if the trend towards bigger is necessarily better? What I mean, is that when you look at what types of rifles were used in WWI, WWII, and even the beginning of Vietnam, a simple Remington 700 ADL sporter in 30-06 would have been a superior weapon to what they had.

From what I read, and I admit I am no expert, you want to shoot once and get out of town as fast as possible. One shot to avoid detection. It would seem a lightweight gun with would make this much easier.

Any comments?
 
I see a similarity between sniper rifles and "stand" rifles.

Not to be confused with a lightweight woods or stalking rifle. Nor a varmint rifle of less than 6mm bore diameter.

Both are shot from a "prepared" position.
Both have to dispense adequate power. Typically .308 Win. Sometimes .223 Remington.
Both have to hit "first shot cold bore".
Typically, both will have serious optics.

Probably the biggest difference is in the scope. A sniper rifle uses a higher power (variable) and has external adjustments. A sporter does not require the external controls, nor the higher magnification.

Another difference is the trigger and safety. A sniper rifle will (usually) have a lighter trigger and the safety device is irrelevant. (Sniper rifles are not employed as "movement" guns.)

The first police sniper rifles were commercial bolt guns with scopes. The "default" police sniper rifle today is the Remington 700, with composite stock and bull barrel. It's not quite a deer gun; a little too heavy for carrying much and too "frilly". The lessons of hunters are evident in the design.

Police snipers usually don't have the "shoot and move" problem. They are covering a specific threat.

The military sniper's job is to eliminate leadership and demoralize the enemy. Too many rounds fired from the same locale will bring return fire, to include artillery.

Too address your question: Military snipers must be more mobile. On the other hand, military snipers are usually youngsters in good shape. (I take about 1 minute to get into the prone position, and 5 to get out of it!) I should think a reasonably light rifle would be in order. A seven pound bolt gun in .308 is not overly abusive in recoil.

An 18 pound rifle sounds like the sort of "unlimited rail gun" used by 1000 yard benchresters. I would think this is a specialty weapon, and not a shoot and run gun. Of course, a military sniper rifle is a crew served weapon: One gunner and one spotter-director. A couple of privates the carry the thing wouldn't be amiss, I suppose......

I shoot (not very well, so far) in police sniper matches. My rifle is in fact a 1917 Eddystone in .30-06 Improved. Has a 3.5-10x Leupold Tactical scope and an old style wood stock.
I'm thinking seriously about upgrading to a Remington 700 Police thingie... with black plastic stock and all. (I hate plastic!!!)
.308 Winchester, of course.
 
The advantages of a heavy barrel for sniping are many, including increased stiffness of the barrel, slowed heating, and with flutes, you get faster cooling. Not all sniping situations involve only one shot, and a sporter barrel will heat up and deform more with repetitive shots hampering accuracy, esp. at long range.
For example, Carlos Hathcock pinned down ~150 NVA soldiers in Elephant Valley for 4 days. He needed the ability to fire again and again over 600-700 yards with accuracy, or risk being overrun. Chuck Mawhinny shot 16 VC who were crossing a river, all at once. When your life depends on accurate rifle fire, I bet you are more willing to lug around a heavy rifle.
It also seems like a heavier rifle would recoil less, and allow a faster follow up shot, if necessary. It would also be more stable when resting it on a bipod or sandbag.
If I had to go into combat as a sniper, I would definitely want THE most accurate rifle I could get, regardless of the weight.
 
Even without fluting a heavy barrel will cool faster, because of increased surface area. Military (combat, not specialists, like Delta) snipers don't usually use variable scopes. It's a durability issue. one less thing to break, as well as fouling up mil-dots. When you say new, I assume something newer than the M24, right? It has been in service for a few years, and I wouldn't call it new.
 
Carlos Hathcock pinned down ~150 NVA soldiers in Elephant Valley for 4 days. He needed the ability to fire again and again over 600-700 yards with accuracy, or risk being overrun.
Click to expand...

After reading Sgt. Hathcock's story in "Marine Sniper," it's clear that carrying a heavy rifle was the least of the hardships he endured in order to do his job. Anyone who has ever even dreamed of being a military sniper should read this book. It separates the men from the boys right quick. I might take my rifles to the range and aspire to Hathcock's marksmanship in my small way, but the fieldcraft, the capacity for suffering, and the pure unadulterated guts he needed to do what he did are more that I could even imagine possessing on the best day of my life. What an incredible man.
 
If you liked Marine Sniper, you should check out Silent Warrior, also by Charles Henderson. Its basically a sequel; it just deals with more a more personal aspect of Hathcock and some of his targets right before their demise. Its not better than the first one, just a little different.
 
"Points To Ponder"

I'm not at all disagreeing with, nor arguing with, any of the above comments, okay? I just want to offer some info from my own years of meddling around with rifles.

When my pet '06 was new, I could get ten-shot groups of 7/8" to 1-1/4" at 100 yards. The benchrest wasn't perfectly solid; the sandbags were rather "casual", and I wouldn't say that my eyes were of the best. This rifle has a 26", medium-weight barrel.

A few months back, meddling around from the table of my 500-yard range, I got two four-shot, four-inch groups--out of two four-shot efforts. With a different load, I shot a rather quick ten-shot string with two called fliers. Eight shots were in some six inches; with the fliers, around eight inches. (Simmons 44 Mag scope @ 10X) That's me, with my tri-focals and cigarette and coffee nerves.

This is why I often question the "need" for some of the equipment called for, for special-purpose use. I don't say the most modern, neat-trick stuff is bad, or that it's not useful. I don't mean that. I'm just dubious that the "improvement" is as necessary as some folks seem to think.

In a sense, to say that these improvements are all that necessary is to imply that Hathcock might not have been able to do what he did, with the equipment he had.

Just some thinking points...

:), Art
 
A fellow TFL'er took a long range rifle course using a Steyr Scout. It handled the class surprisingly well. Do I believe that a Scout should be our sniper rifle, no. But it can be much more effective than you would expect. Shows that a well made rifle and skill can make you question the truth of some of the more common beliefs. Sniper Scout
 
Art kind of somes up the purpose of my question. I agree that the fancy, heavy barreled, tuned sniper guns are better. I just wonder if 95% of the time the same job could be done with a $450 Remington deer gun? Just like everything, I wonder where the curve tends to flaten out as you dump money and weight into a rifle. I am not claiming that all this is the bottom line truth. Like Art said, food for thought.
 
Hathcock pinned down 150 NVA ect....
Didn't he use a Rem. 700 with very little done to it? ( I haven't read the books so please enlighten me.)
I tend to agree with Art on this one, well almost. I think a Standard rifle ala Rem. 700 with a composite stock, a cleaned up trigger pull and good optics is just fine for 95% of police and military use.
 
Yeah, 12-34hom, I keep seeing posts from the various LEO types here to the effect that police sniper work is infrequently more than 100 yards. It's hard to imagine ANY modern scope-sighted rifle which won't reliably make a head shot at 100 yards.

(I grant that at, say, 200 yards, if a Bad Guy has a hostage in a choke-hold, I wouldn't pick a Mini-14. :) )

OTOH, military sniping, with its typical 800- to 1,000-yard potential, is a "whole 'nother country".

Regardless, if a few bucks extra for a few bells and whistles makes a user more confident, it's probably well-spent. Within some rational limit, whatever makes reliable center-hits more probable strikes me as a Good Thing.

Nuthin' new in this, of course...

Art
 
Steve M,
Hathcock used a pre-64 winchester M70 with a heavy barrel and 8 power Unertl scope, in 30-06. It was not a stock rifle, but wasnt too far from being one. In the early years of the conflict, there was a severe shortage of snipers and sniper rifles due to the peacetime shame of training snipers. After ww2 and korea, sniper units were disbanded and training was stopped. We were so short of sniping rifles that during the early part of Vietnam we had to use stock bolt action rifles that were reserved for R&R hunting trips! Some scopes were purchased from Okinowa(sp?) sporting goods stores. These stock rifles were not especially accurate, so armorers started modifying them, and the 1st official sniper school was created by Jim Land and Hathcock. Towards the end of the war, the Army had the M-14 accurized and the Marines used 30-06 Win. M70's and Rem 700's in .308.

BTW- Hathcock pioneered the use of the .50 round for sniping purposes by making kills at 2500 yards with an M-2 that he had mounted his Unertl scope on.


I should also add that police snipers usually dont just want to make a "head shot", but shoot for the brainstem of the "suspect". If hit in the head in a general sense, reflex actions and uncontrolled firing of neurons can cause the body to do some amazing movements, including pulling a trigger or cutting a throat. From what I have read, the police snipers objective when dealing with a hostage in a chokehold or other dangerous situation is to put a bullet through the brainstem, which lies at the base of the back of the head, where all the nerve impulses that control the body must go through on their way to the spinal cord. If the brainstem is destroyed, no reflex action can occur, and the "suspect" is dead before they hit the ground. That target is about the size of a small lemon.
 
Dave I thought this topic looked familiar. You asked almost the same question about 2 months ago and got a bunch of answers. What exactly are you trying to find out or get from this being asked again? I'm not flaming here just wondering? Is there something specific youare looking for? If you want everyone to agree I don't think it's going to happen from looking at the last post ;) Go to www.snipershide.com in the forums www.snipersparadise.com in the Q&A and the duty roster at www.snipercountry.com and ask the question. Maybe they can give you some more specific answers seeing as they deal more with and know alot about the rifles you are asking about. You can reread my commments at the link to your last post on the subject.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80862
 
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Here's why the military uses the heavier rifle -

If the military is taking bids for "sniper" rifles, you're going to have huge competition. Every rifle manufacturer known to man has some kinda bolt-action, super accurate rifle.

That rifle has to go through the military's testing. That testing includes long range, short range, slow fire, rapid fire, squibs, heavy loads, getting dropped, kicked, thrown, submersed in liquids, buried in ice, and many other tests I can't really think of off-hand.

Will your varmit rifle last through that?
 
yankytrash, in a word, "Yes.", if you'll allow me to use one of my sporterized Springfields on varmints. :) Your testing might be rough on scopes and mounts, but it wouldn't be any worse for a varmint rifle than for any other.

(Well, forgot about "purty" for the stock.)

:D, Art

Quail alert! Got a whole covey of blues running back and forth on my porch! And the season's open! Shame I can't shoot housepets. :D
 
Reminds me of some of the threads I read on Sniper Country.

It was mentioned before that police v. military sniping are two different bears. Keep in mind, IIRC from the Duty Roster, the average shot takes place in the 75-100 yard range, whereas military extends to the 5-700 yard range and sometimes longer.
You also have to keep in mind that the military has a much different spec for choosing a rifle. I still get a laught at the old 'pound a nail through a wood board with the scope and sill maintain zero' story (not an official test, mind). The military looks for a gun you can drag through hell and gone, take the worst amount of **** you can, and still maintain zero and shoot MOA or better out to long distances. Will sporter rifle/scope combo's do it? Some may very well. The question is, if you had a choice between 18lbs of 'Will do', and 11lbs of 'Should do', which will you trust your shot, and possibly your life to?
 
Rob01, At different times, different people respond to the question for a variety of reasons. I did not have all the input I think I wanted. I don't think there is anything wrong with this. At least I am not asking the proverbial "Is the Mini-14 a good gun?" question. Now, that one has been beaten to death.

The premise of this question is the fact that it is easy to pour our attention and money into weapons. Heck, we all love guns, right? Is it possible that we go to far? Maybe.

There is always more to learn.
 
The question is, if you had a choice between 18lbs of 'Will do', and 11lbs of 'Should do', which will you trust your shot, and possibly your life to
Click to expand...
I type too dang much. Thanks, Hard_Case, that's exactly what I was trying to say in three times the amount of required words.

(...and there I go again.....:D )
 
Most shooters not as good as their guns.
Really good shooters do better with better guns.

Military scout/sniper must be patient, able to read cover, able to read tactical situation, a good stalker, willing to shoot, outstanding physical condition and good shooter.

Civillian sniper usually only needs shooting skills.

Sam
 
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