speed draw par time...?

The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
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Yes! This thread concentrates on the "A" of the OODA loop; but even if you are slothlike, that is what? Four seconds max? So, if by diligent preparation you become the next Jelly Bryce, you can cycle through your OODA loop 3.74 seconds faster after spending a lifetime perfecting your draw. Spend a few hours working on boring non-gun skills that help speed your observation, orientation and decision making and you'll save a lot more time than 4 seconds with less effort.
 
...reacting quickly to a perceived attack is very difficult. The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
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Perhaps this was implied, but there is also the time that elapses before "seeing a potential threat".

If one has not yet noticed that "odd looking guy over there" when he (and perhaps his accomplices) starts moving into position, that much more of the fuse has burned down,

No one has eyes in the back of one's head, and likely no one with the gift of sight will employ Braille in doing things to help keep the eyes focussed on threat detection.

One needs to know and notice as much as possible about what is going on in the general area.

Bart has it right: concentrating solely on that segment of the timeline measured by draw speed only addresses a small part of the self defense process.
 
speed draw par time...? from 7 to 10 yds whats an appropriate par time for drawing and firing a hit

Coming back to the original question and not pushing my understanding of what is a better parameter for good defensive skills, I found that with some practice most shooters are around 1.2 to 1.5 seconds from an open holster at 7 yards and hitting the A zone. Under 1.0 seconds is fast and under 0.8 seconds is getting into a competitive range. I would not classify it into beginners and intermediate but average, fast and really fast, since everybody has a different performance ceiling.

Doing the same from concealment is also depending on the kind of concealment, the typical open front 5.11 vest with a weighted pocket is completely different from a closed-front-shirt IWB draw.

Drawing speed and shooting skills are largely acquired skills that need training to be improved or even maintained, despite the fact that talent plays a big role here, too.

I have always been very competitive - and successful - in many different sports and have learnt the necessary training discipline that helps me to improve scores.
 
Well you can't go around with your pistol drawn and pointing at everyone. It tends to be frowned upon in polite society.
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How did you infer that from my statement? Looks like you are just Trolling.
 
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I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said, but waiting to "get off the X" is also dangerous since you do not know your attackers reflexes or agility.
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What he is referring to by "getting off the X" us in LE call that "off-lining" or we used too when I was training cops. It means to move diagonally to the attackers line of attack. I don't care how good your reflexes are if you are running straight ahead it is difficult to quickly change directions with all that forward momentum. I am sure you were taught something similar in martial arts, I was.
 
Gear possession is good. Familiarity and the ability to use the gear is better. Relying solely on the gear an using it, under optimal training and practice conditions, is perhaps less of a "predictor" of potential successful application than we might wish ... even if it makes us feel good about ourselves and having the gear.
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And understanding our opponent is best. Looking for indicators ('tells') of their intentions puts one well ahead of the curve.

I hope you folks know there have been actual cases of people 'beating the drop'. They actually outdrew their opponent who had a gun already leveled at them.

Deaf
 
I've seen that in class. In a simulated robbery, the crook had a gun pointed at the victim. Said victim, drew and shot the crook. Victim was the instructor - he said that one 'trick' so to speak was to draw while the crook was talking as the time to disengage from your speech to react slowed down the bad guy. Close up, one could stop the draw if you focused on the hands. Scenario was a guy very close up who raised his shirt to show the gun to intimidate at about a foot away.
 
I remember seeing Bob Munden in a exhibition did that kind of stunt.

Bill Jordan wrote about beating the drop. He said it defiantly could and had been done in real life.

It's not for everyone but someone who practices a lot and looks for the right indicators they can get inside another persons reflexes.

Deaf
 
Beating the drop...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

The video shows a few good tactics for beating the drop.
It also shows how stupid it is in most circumstances. Sure looked like that infant had a few rounds quite close.
Who robs a hotel anyways? Do people still pay cash for hotel rooms? Maybe it was a no-tell.

There is a video somewhere on youtube showing people who are shot when trying it.
 
Drawing a gun is always a last resort, but to draw on someone who is point a gun at you is a most desperate strategy indeed.

Yeah, some folks may be able to do it, some of the time.

Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
 
Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
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And that is the best question in the whole thread. Most people hit with a handgun bullet (barring a CNS hit) show exactly ZERO reaction. After the hit some turn and run, some stay and fight. Neither one is an immediate stop.
 
Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
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Why would anyone 'assume' they fired just one shot. You do know what the word assume means, right?

Deaf
 
Why would anyone 'assume' they fired just one shot.
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One need not so assume.

The issue at hand is the likelihood that a defender shooting someone with gun in hand would be able to sufficiently disable an attacker timely.

I would rather bet on filling an inside straight with only two good cards in my hand.
 
Deaf Smith said:
And understanding our opponent is best. Looking for indicators ('tells') of their intentions puts one well ahead of the curve.

I hope you folks know there have been actual cases of people 'beating the drop'. They actually outdrew their opponent who had a gun already leveled at them.

Deaf
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I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "understanding our opponent". Unless you are being attacked by a known person, all you can do is make assumptions. This could be VERY dangerous as you could grossly underestimate his skill and reflexes. You are also assuming that you see the attacker before they start moving at you aggressively and that you have the time to "understand our opponent". In an ideal situation, you will see the potential threat from a distance. Life doesn't always work out that way. That is why it is important to practice drawing and getting on target quickly.

As for beating a drawn gun, yes it is possible. Is it worth the risk of getting shot and killed over a robbery? I personally don't think so. If it is an attempted abduction or it looks like things might go south regardless of compliance, then I would take the risk. This is obviously a personal choice and we have to decide based on the situation and our confidence in our skill level.

I believe having a few extra "tricks in the bag" could greatly improve your odds. As I've already mentioned, some hand to hand skills allow you to disarm your attacker, or injure him enough to grab your weapon. Looking for an opportunity or creating a distraction could also improve your odds. Maybe intentionally looking over the guy's shoulder could buy you a second if he turns to look. Someone could fake a heart attack or drop their wallet. Having good draw speed and practicing the draw from concealment is important, but consider some of the ideas listed above and add other ideas you guys might have.
 
Unless you are being attacked by a known person, all you can do is make assumptions.
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You need to take a few courses like those from SouthNarc or others that will explain to you what to look for (or like me spend 40+ years in the martial arts.) Most people telegraph their intentions. And with good practice you can learn to get inside their reaction time.

Is it worth the risk of getting shot and killed over a robbery?
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Depends a lot on what the robber says or how they act. Some will give indications they don't want any loose ends.

Deaf
 
Back on topic.

All I can say, is "Before you start considering speed of draw, & shooting, have you established a good skill set of very the thorough fundamental basic foundations of proper shooting techniques? This part always comes first. The speed part ALWAYS comes later. Whether you are learning how to become a plumber or a pistol shooter, take whatever time you need to do the job, safely, and properly. The speed part is guaranteed to come later. We won't all be world record shooting experts, but with time and training, we should just all do the best we can, with what God gave us, and the ancillary equipment (tools) we can choose to implement." I used an old Browning Hi Power in my last incident. It served me well. 1001 things raced through my mind, from, what or who is down range, to, can I just run away, to where can I move to find cover or get a better shot, to what will slow my attacker down, what will stop him, and ""I AM SCREWED UNLESS I MOVE"", to "now where can I move to get shots that won't kill the people down range". I got my gun back after the trial. I thanked God no one died, and that I was not the one on trial, and I pray it never ever happens again.
 
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