Spare mags - a rational discussion

Donn N...

... those are also valid points.

For me, a second gun is a more likely option when the primary is a revolver, but I could see putting a pocket 9mm into BUG role to a larger semi-auto as well.

I don't have anything smaller than a pocket 9mm, size-wise. My .22 is K frame, so it's smaller caliber but a larger weapon.
 
MLeake said:
... but risk analysis and taste are not good similes...
Perhaps to you. I think it works just fine. I guess it's a matter of taste.

In any event, it's not a question of risk analysis. It's a question of risk tolerance. It seems that everyone agrees that there is some risk doing without an extra magazine and there seems to be some degree of consensus as to the nature of the risk. The personal and subjective question is whether the risk warrants the inconvenience involved to mitigate it.
 
But it seems that some people have a set answer in mind that is their answer for a broad range of scenarios. If the risk analysis or tolerance doesn't change with changing circumstances (jacket or heavy coat weather, pockets are abundant, and mags are barely noticeable in the pocket of a 1951 field jacket; recent increase in burglaries and robberies in vicinity of home; recent sightings of packs of coyotes, etc), then maybe it's more a matter of stubbornness?
 
It seems that everyone agrees that there is some risk doing without an extra magazine and there seems to be some degree of consensus as to the nature of the risk. The personal and subjective question is whether the risk warrants the inconvenience involved to mitigate it.

Right.

Most formal approaches to risk management include the following steps:

  • Identify the risks--that's been done here
  • Analyze the risks in terms of likehood and potential consequence--the latter is easy, but the former will be not only specific to situations and environment but for what this thread is about, difficult to do quantitatively, and therefore probably rather subjective
  • Identify risk handling options--mitigation techiques on the one hand, acceptance of the risk on the other
  • Select from among the identified risk handling options

I have omitted the steps of reporting and tracking.

This approach is employed in engineering, investment strategy, internal controls design, architecture, asset protection strategy, emergency preparedness planning, military strategy, you name it.

So--if the risk in question is "I might be attacked", the first questions are "how likely is that to happen?" (probably remote) and "how serious would that be?" (very bad). Potential handling options might include "stay home", "go only in large groups", "carry a gun and know how to use it", or "what the heck--let's take the chance".

I choose to carry a gun.

Now, if the second-tier risks are "five shots might not be enough" and "the gun might fail to function", one again needs to look at likelihood and potential consequence and evaluate handling options.

Options may include, "carry a larger capacity weapon", "carry an extra magazine", "carry two guns", or "accept the risk." Since the potential consequence has already been established as "extremely severe", the decision will come down to the combination of two things and the personal risk tolerance of the individual:

  • Likelihood
  • The convenience and effectiveness of the mitigation options (the former will likely change with the season, except perhaps in California) :)

The combination of those two and one's personal risk tolerance will drive either the selection of a mitigation approach or the decision to accept the risk.

A lot more economical way to express all of the above is to say "the personal and subjective question is whether the risk warrants the inconvenience involved to mitigate it " :) but I wanted to provide a little more in the way of a decision analysis toolset for anyone who may want it.

Personally, I'm right at the cusp. I think that I think that for me as a man. an attack by two or more thugs is at least as likely as an attack by a single asssailant, who may be a little wary of acting alone. It may be more likely, for that matter. I think five shots might be marginal. I think that in the summer I don't like the inconvenience of carrying more stuff.

Several months ago, a gang of about a dozen toughs threw a bicycle in front of a car on a street I use often; the driver got out to see what he had hit and was attacked from the shadows. No serious injuries that I know of--but I did buy a Smith M&P9C right after that.

The ammunition shortage delayed my being able to shoot it enough to rely on it, but I've gotten through that.

But--you know what? I still pocket the Centennial every day.

When colder weather brings about heavier clothing that may change, and when the holster gets here it may well be to carrying a new .45 Model 1911 that I've come to like better in many ways.

Extra magazine? Heck, I don't know. Maybe not, in town.

I hope the above discussion proves helpful for future analysis.
 
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My point is and will remain, though, that if your situation and clothing allow the option of a spare magazine without undue aggravation, it's a good idea to carry the spare, partially for ability to use more rounds, and partially for ability to resolve certain stoppages.

Thats where you lose me.

It's a good idea.....for you...but not for others who dont share you view of risk analysis or your beleif in the efficacy of a spare magazine.

WildwhatifthesecondoneisbadAlaska TM
 
Is there anything more to be said?

Make your risk analysis and do what you want. The problem is ranting against someone else who has a different view from you.

However, if we are in a fight and you run dry - I ain't giving you no stinkin' ammo. :D
 
Is there anything more to be said?
yes how about the fact that the people on this thread championing their decision to not carry any extra ammo.have probably wasted way more time and energy posting to this thread than it would take to load a mag and slide it in your pocket and be quiet.It might even be argued it is more inconvienent to not carry a reload.
 
yes how about the fact that the people on this thread championing their decision to not carry any extra ammo.have probably wasted way more time and energy posting to this thread than it would take to load a mag and slide it in your pocket and be quiet.It might even be argued it is more inconvienent to not carry a reload.

That might be a valid point if anyone was arguing that the reason they don't carry a spare magazine is because it takes too long to load it and slide it into their pocket. Since I don't recall anyone making such an argument, I fail to see your point.
 
I usually carry a spare mag with me loaded with cheap FMJs in case im out and about and find something that looks like it needs to be shot. Like coyotes and opossoms.
 
Over the course of my career as a LE firearms instructor I had the chance to work with a fair number of cops and even CCW folks. I eventually came to a dismaying conclusion.

It's likely that there are a fair number of lawfully armed folks walking around in the general public who may be somewhat over-confident when it comes to their abilities to defend themselves in an unexpected, tumultuous, rapidly evolving, chaotic, physically & emotionally stressful situation involving the realistically perceived threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death.

Not just from an equipment perspective, either.

Mindset, skillset, toolset.

Some folks like to reverse the order of relevance, placing equipment first when it comes to considering priorities.

People can buy equipment, though. Just involves spending money.

Being physically prepared from the equipment perspective is not the same thing as being physically prepared to react and effectively function at a heightened physical level, nor does it mean someone may be prepared to be able to react and effectively function mentally & emotionally.

Me?

Sure, I've invested a lifetime learning how to safely handle, manipulate and shoot a number of various firearms. Since I was about 5 years old.

I spent a number of years improving my knowledge and skills while working as a firearms instructor, too.

I've spent 38 years working to improve my knowledge and skills in the martial arts.

I've been very fortunate and lucky in that regard.

There are times when I leave the house without carrying a lawfully concealed firearm, though. :eek: I somehow manage to make it home again safely, too.

While I spent the better part of a decade carrying an issued 6-shot revolver as a young cop I wouldn't go so far as to feel like carrying a short-barreled 5-shot revolver as a service weapon. As a secondary/backup, but not as a working primary. At least not in most situations. I'd rather have a somewhat larger, easier to shoot 6-shot revolver. Comes to that, a 7 or 8-shot revolver would be better still. ;)

Anyway, I finished up my LE career carrying an issued 7+1 shot .45 compact pistol for a plainclothes assignment and either 1 or 2 spare magazines, depending on my caseload and anticipated activities for any given day.

On my own time, especially now that I'm retired, I generally carry either a 5-shot .38 Spl or a small 9/40 pistol of some sort. The magazine capacities of the small pistols range from 7-10 rounds ... and I carry a spare magazine. Sometimes a pair of them.

I also carry 1-2 speedstrips or speedloaders when carrying a J-frame. Sometimes more, especially if I'm going on a day ride through the hills and countryside along the Coast or inland valleys.

I can shoot a 5-shot revolver relatively well, though. Shooting 5 shots into a fist-sized group at 5 yards in less than 3 seconds is one of the ways I check myself from time to time. I still test the basic skills at distance, too.

Sure, I can do better when shooting a pistol.

As long as I can do well enough with one of the diminutive J-frames, however, the 5-shot guns will remain in my retirement CCW lineup. Handy. Convenient. Able to be carried in pocket holsters and pockets where even my compact & subcompact 9/40 pistols won't easily carry.

I still remain mindful of the importance of awareness and mindset, though, as well as continuing to work on fighting off the ravages of time in the way of working out, too.

I don't shoot as much as when I was working, but I enjoy my range sessions a bit more. I also find I can burn up less ammunition and still meet my needs and goals, too.

I no longer have much concern regarding what other folks may, or may not, choose to carry as lawful concealed weapons. Not my business. Each person has to make such informed decisions for themselves after careful review of their perceived needs, their knowledge, their skills and their experience.

With such decisions can come the potential for consequences, though ...
 
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The ability to return one's pistol to it's initial state of readiness is a point typically neglected in these discussions, and at a glance that appears to be the case in this particular one.

Please continue.
 
The ability to return one's pistol to it's initial state of readiness is a point typically neglected in these discussions, and at a glance that appears to be the case in this particular one.

Please continue.

A fair observation, to some extent.

Being able to return the weapon to its "initial state of readiness" is a practical concern.

However ... sometimes it may not be so simple as we might prefer.

Looking at it simply from the perspective of the time and manipulations required to reload a semiauto pistol compared to a revolver, the pistol generally gets the nod for ease and speed of reloading.

However, reloading skills are sometimes as neglected in actual training & practice as they sometimes are in discussions.

I can reload a pistol faster than a revolver.

I can reload a revolver faster than a surprising number of folks I know who carry pistols for LE or CCW roles can reload their pistols ... and that's just from watching and/or qualifying them in a non-threatening range range environment.

Just as having a handgun lawfully carried in the role of a defensive weapon is certainly no guarantee that it can be safely and effectively used by the owner/user if ever needed ... so is carrying a spare magazine arguably no guarantee it will be able to be effectively employed and used if actually needed.

I've watched my fair share of folks try to 'reload' their pistols with folding knives and even mini flashlights pulled from their gun belts.

I've watched other folks wearing soft (civilian) clothes fumble with belt carriers and pockets trying to locate magazines.

I've watched magazines tumble through the air when unintentionally released from the stressed, uncertain grasp of someone trying to reload. I've seen them tossed forward, too, traveling a surprising distance before hitting the ground.

I've seen folks try to force magazines into pistols backwards.

I've seen folks exchange pistols between master & support hands while trying to find a way to insert magazines.

I've seen folks try to activate everything except the magazine catch in an attempt to remove an empty magazine and reload with a fresh one. Releasing the slide via the slide stop lever, instead of pressing the magazine catch, can sometimes make for at least a couple of seconds of watchful anticipation while someone waits for the magazine to fall free of the gun.

I've seen people manage to reload the gun with a fresh magazine only to immediately hit the magazine catch button again and drop the fresh magazine out of the gun.

I've seen any number of the usual reloading/manipulation issues folks can create for themselves when trying to operate a pistol during even the controlled conditions of training courses and qualification courses of fire.

You can probably imagine how such issues can easily result in a rapid degradation of shooter skills and control when the shooting is resumed, too.

It doesn't seem to be any easier when problems have occurred during an actual deadly force/shooting situation, either.

Folks can fumble in odd and unexpected ways.

Proper practice can sometimes help train to overcome the stresses experienced during some situations and conditions.

Just carrying the magazine around in a pocket or on the belt is sometimes just that ... just carrying it around.
 
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That might be a valid point if anyone was arguing that the reason they don't carry a spare magazine is because it takes too long to load it and slide it into their pocket. Since I don't recall anyone making such an argument, I fail to see your point.
they've argued inconvienence hence more work than they're willing to do for any additional need of extra ammo.wow I really didn't think it would be that hard to make the connection.
 
The flip side of this argument is, what would I gain by NOT carrying the spare mag?
In my case, I can't for the life of me figure out how the magazine loads ammo into the cylinder :p

If I carry an automatic, I usually carry a spare magazine. Why? Because of the potential for stoppages. Is my concern entirely rational? Probably not.

Every automatic I own has been perfectly reliable. Yet, I grew up in a culture that taught me not to trust automatics, so the old paranoia is there. At the very least, it can't hurt.

For the most part, I carry a revolver. I usually have a reload close at hand, unless I have a second gun. Never hurts.

Plain fact is, I carry a gun in case the unpredictable and unthinkable happens. That's not a time to find out I wasn't prepared for every possible contingency.

Naturally, there are practical limits. Do I carry a spare gun or reload at all times? No. In fact, I do so less lately. But I'm not going to knock anyone who does.

Do your own thing. Keep your eyes open and your mind keen. Get home alive.
 
they've argued inconvienence hence more work than they're willing to do for any additional need of extra ammo.wow I really didn't think it would be that hard to make the connection.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that inconvenient translated into "more work than they're willing to do", but no one has said that. Inconvenient just as likely means it isn't convenient to have a loaded magazine that weighs over half a pound (in the case of a fully loaded Glock 19 mag) flopping around in one's pocket or weighing down one's belt. Or perhaps inconvenient means it is difficult to conceal a double stack magazine. Or perhaps it is inconvenient because it takes up space in one's pocket that they feel would be better taken up with something else.
 
Plain fact is, I carry a gun in case the unpredictable and unthinkable happens. That's not a time to find out I wasn't prepared for every possible contingency.

Naturally, there are practical limits. Do I carry a spare gun or reload at all times? No. In fact, I do so less lately. But I'm not going to knock anyone who does.

Obviously, you realize that no one is ever prepared for every possible contingency.

And of course, there are practical limits, but what that practical limit is is a matter of personal consideration. And that's why I say if you want to carry a spare magazine or six spare magazines, go for it. Who cares? I won't fault anyone who carries whatever makes them feel safe. I feel perfectly safe with two guns and no reloads. That's my own practical limit.
 
When not working, I do not usually carry a reload, so I guess I'm betting my life on the "probably never need it" argument. However, I agree in principle with the idea of having a reload, for in addition to the obvious "target-rich environment" and "secondary malfunction drill" rationales, there is a not-uncommon stress reaction during self-defense situations where the shooter tunnel-visions on the threat, only snapping out of it while clicking the trigger of an empty weapon. At that point, it might be nice to have a reload...
 
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I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that inconvenient translated into "more work than they're willing to do", but no one has said that. Inconvenient just as likely means it isn't convenient to have a loaded magazine that weighs over half a pound (in the case of a fully loaded Glock 19 mag) flopping around in one's pocket or weighing down one's belt. Or perhaps inconvenient means it is difficult to conceal a double stack magazine. Or perhaps it is inconvenient because it takes up space in one's pocket that they feel would be better taken up with something else.
would you understand better if I substituted the word trouble for work.still the same concept.
 
I'll stick with carrying a Sig 226 Primary with a spare Magazine and my S&W340PD as backup, it's a little extra weight but that does not bother me however if I do need it and don't have it that would really bother me. Hopefully I'll carry them till I can't walk any more and never have to use them again, but you never know.
 
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