Put me in with those who say that a well timed spanking is part of raising good kids. This means that it is NOT done in anger. Be consistent in an inconsistent world, you will have their respect. I have had a chance to meet (and date) a few single mothers who never disciplined their kids in any consistent way, they did those kids no favors.
SPANKING a child teaches them to be VIOLENT?
- Thread starter jdthaddeus
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Spanking in and of itself doesn't teach a child violence. It teaches the child discipline and that there are repercussions for one's actions. In short, it's part of learning about responsibility.
This is not to say a child should be struck each and every time something goes wrong. If administered, punishment should be fair and just and not arbitrary. The kid should have the "talk" before the punishment so that he realizes why it is necessary to be administered. Check out Bill Cosby's book on fatherhood if you want to read a great story about the time he administered corporal punishment to his (late) son.
Concerning the teaching of violence, let the kid watch TV (desensitize) and play video games (Doom). Without parental guidance to explain television or games, the kid can very well come to accept violence as the norm as opposed to the exception. It's somewhat akin to the child who watches his father beat his mother on the regular basis. He could grow up believing that it's normal and resort to this technique himself in his own relationships.
This is not to say a child should be struck each and every time something goes wrong. If administered, punishment should be fair and just and not arbitrary. The kid should have the "talk" before the punishment so that he realizes why it is necessary to be administered. Check out Bill Cosby's book on fatherhood if you want to read a great story about the time he administered corporal punishment to his (late) son.
Concerning the teaching of violence, let the kid watch TV (desensitize) and play video games (Doom). Without parental guidance to explain television or games, the kid can very well come to accept violence as the norm as opposed to the exception. It's somewhat akin to the child who watches his father beat his mother on the regular basis. He could grow up believing that it's normal and resort to this technique himself in his own relationships.
Spectre,
I don't use the Bible to reinforce MY opinion. The Bible is my authority, I get my opinion from it, and I believe it all. The Deut passage you quoted was part of the Mosaic Law. It pertained to Israel. If I were under the Law I would in fact do as it said in this instance. There is, however, no instance of it ever being done. It was, obviously, intended to discourage the Israelites from rebellion, and to purge the incorrigible at an early age. In fact, the disobedience of the child was in direct contradiction of the fifth commandment, and was was so detrimental to the nation that it was punishable by death. Today we are not under the Mosaic Law and there are other ways to discipline a child who is incorrigible. The Proverbs are not a part of the Law, but wisdom for everyday life. If they were practiced today we would be a much better, safer, and freer nation. Although I got a few spankings, I also had a great desire not to disgrace or displease my mother. I didn't have to spank my children many times. I would guess I didn't spank each more than four times a year until they were about 12-13. After that I never spanked them because there were other ways to discipline them at that point in their lives. A two year old doesn't worry about losing his driving privileges, but a 15 year old does. A two year old has no concept of a love that makes him want to do right. We have raised a generation of children that as teenagers have no concept of true love. The notion that spanking sends the message that violence is the way to solve problems is more liberal claptrap. It sends the message that there are consequences of your actions. Children need to learn this. I see a generation of spoiled brats who are self-centered, undisciplined, and disobedient to parents and all authorities alike. Of course that is in harmony with what the Bible says, and which is the result of refusing to follow God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:1 " ¶This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. "
Do you notice the similarities of today? I sure do! Spanking should be practiced at home and in the schools. The current attitudes regarding spanking are the same attitudes that protects the criminal and not the innocent. It is the same attitude that passes laws against anyone disciplining children, but blames the parents for the child's crimes. It is the attitude that encourages sex outside of marriage and then says kill the unborn child. The liberal mindset is a godless way of thinking that doesn't understand the Word. The liberal will say kill the unborn, but will send you to prison for killing a puppy or breaking an eagle's egg, and then say 'Thou shalt not kill" when a murderer is about to be put to death. It is the type of the thinking that is literally destroying our nation.
Regarding love and good parenting, love demands that you raise a child in the way he ought to go. A child is not innocent and will get away with whatever he can. Isn't that obvious to you? Good parenting requires that you prepare the child for adulthood. Good parents do that to the best of their abilities. God says spanking is a necessary part of that. That is truth and it doesn't depend upon whether you believe it or not. The results are speaking for themselves every day. Character does count. Jerry
I don't use the Bible to reinforce MY opinion. The Bible is my authority, I get my opinion from it, and I believe it all. The Deut passage you quoted was part of the Mosaic Law. It pertained to Israel. If I were under the Law I would in fact do as it said in this instance. There is, however, no instance of it ever being done. It was, obviously, intended to discourage the Israelites from rebellion, and to purge the incorrigible at an early age. In fact, the disobedience of the child was in direct contradiction of the fifth commandment, and was was so detrimental to the nation that it was punishable by death. Today we are not under the Mosaic Law and there are other ways to discipline a child who is incorrigible. The Proverbs are not a part of the Law, but wisdom for everyday life. If they were practiced today we would be a much better, safer, and freer nation. Although I got a few spankings, I also had a great desire not to disgrace or displease my mother. I didn't have to spank my children many times. I would guess I didn't spank each more than four times a year until they were about 12-13. After that I never spanked them because there were other ways to discipline them at that point in their lives. A two year old doesn't worry about losing his driving privileges, but a 15 year old does. A two year old has no concept of a love that makes him want to do right. We have raised a generation of children that as teenagers have no concept of true love. The notion that spanking sends the message that violence is the way to solve problems is more liberal claptrap. It sends the message that there are consequences of your actions. Children need to learn this. I see a generation of spoiled brats who are self-centered, undisciplined, and disobedient to parents and all authorities alike. Of course that is in harmony with what the Bible says, and which is the result of refusing to follow God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:1 " ¶This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. "
Do you notice the similarities of today? I sure do! Spanking should be practiced at home and in the schools. The current attitudes regarding spanking are the same attitudes that protects the criminal and not the innocent. It is the same attitude that passes laws against anyone disciplining children, but blames the parents for the child's crimes. It is the attitude that encourages sex outside of marriage and then says kill the unborn child. The liberal mindset is a godless way of thinking that doesn't understand the Word. The liberal will say kill the unborn, but will send you to prison for killing a puppy or breaking an eagle's egg, and then say 'Thou shalt not kill" when a murderer is about to be put to death. It is the type of the thinking that is literally destroying our nation.
Regarding love and good parenting, love demands that you raise a child in the way he ought to go. A child is not innocent and will get away with whatever he can. Isn't that obvious to you? Good parenting requires that you prepare the child for adulthood. Good parents do that to the best of their abilities. God says spanking is a necessary part of that. That is truth and it doesn't depend upon whether you believe it or not. The results are speaking for themselves every day. Character does count. Jerry
I was never hit as a child. Never popped, smacked, whupped, beaten, or whacked. I was spanked a few times. A very few times. They must've done it right, because I can remember every one of them and can solemnly swear that it never needed to be done twice for the same offense. If I was "acting up" in the grocery store, say, there'd be one (and only one) "Stop that right now." from Mom. This was a clue. Should the behavior continue, there was only one more warning; the sidelong, meaningful glance with raised eyebrow. On the one occasion I was dumb enough to continue past this point, sentence was then pronounced thusly (sing along with me, now) "Wait til your father gets home.". The ultimate pronouncement of Doom. What was normally the most joyous time of my day had just *poof!* been converted to the hour of my execution. A pall fell over my mood. When we got home, I was sent to the holding cell (my room) to await sentence. The sound of dad's car pulling into the driveway would send a chill up my spine. Surely, he already knew something was wrong, since I didn't go flying down the sidewalk to meet him like always. I'd hear him come in the house, and the hushed murmur of grownup voices conferring downstairs. Ooohh! He'll be so sad, now, because this means we can't race slot cars tonight, or run his trains or watch Mission Impossible or Get Smart together. I've ruined Dad's night! Footsteps come up the stairs and stop at the end of the hallway, by the bathroom door. "Tamara, come here." That was the second worst part- 'Dead kid walking!'. Dragging my little feet down the hall, already in tears. "What did you do?" You gotta tell the truth, cause you know Mom told him, and you feel like a total heel when after reciting the litany of your offenses he looks at you mournfully and says "You know I hate doing this, I wish you wouldn't make me." What a putz I am! I've let down the team! He gestures into the bathroom. Two or three formal whacks on the butt and it's over, except for the silent hug and "Tamara, please don't ever do that again, and I won't have to do this again. Okay?" Dinner without desert, and off to bed early.
In retrospect, looking back as an adult, none of the spankings ever really hurt. But that didn't matter. I would do anything to avoid hurting my folks feelings that way again. I believe they may have both worked in PsychOps before I came along, now that I think about it, 'cause they sure were good at it...
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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
In retrospect, looking back as an adult, none of the spankings ever really hurt. But that didn't matter. I would do anything to avoid hurting my folks feelings that way again. I believe they may have both worked in PsychOps before I came along, now that I think about it, 'cause they sure were good at it...
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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
After training dogs, horses, and all manner of beasts, I can say that I am now well qualified to train children! Really! Here is the short skinny from my perspective. We NEVER strike a horse unless it is doing something dangerous to the rider, and in that case the timing must be perfect so that the horse associates the pain with the improper action. When a horse rears, one should ball up his fist and give a firm smack between the ears, it doesn't have to be hard, or require the application of strength, it only requires a fisted tap on the head to strike the nerve between the ears. If you are consistent with this, the horse associates the act of rearing (dangerous, even deadly to the rider) with pain. The horse will correct the bad habit.
The greatest disciplinarian in my life was my grandfather who incidentally is also the most faithful practicing christian man I have ever known. He never spanked us once. He did however rebuke you imeadiately when you were about to make a mistake, or did something wrong. He would "slap" you in the back of the head for being stupid, but I say slap because I don't know the proper ajective for it. It never hurt, and wasn't intended to. It was only a rebuke. What he possessed was a dedication to train kids. Yes, you train them. Some spank, and I am not against that. My dad wore out belts on me and my brother, and we still turned out alright. I still say that the secret is in the timing, and the surety of punishment. All punishment should be swift, almost coinciding with the behavior. It must also be a sure thing.
The problem with kids now days is daycare workers don't punish them swiftly.
If you want your kids to be good, you must build a foundation. Spankings will not substitute for time spent with them. My grandfather spent his every waking moment making us work, and then watching us play. Every minute of every day spent with him was about learning, love, and discipline (self discipline). I have resolved to spend every minute of every day teaching my son in the same ways. I may have to spank, but hopefully, that will be rare indeed. His respect for me will be absolute. I will earn that respect.
My absolute favorite verse is: "Raise up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Never more true words spoken.
The greatest disciplinarian in my life was my grandfather who incidentally is also the most faithful practicing christian man I have ever known. He never spanked us once. He did however rebuke you imeadiately when you were about to make a mistake, or did something wrong. He would "slap" you in the back of the head for being stupid, but I say slap because I don't know the proper ajective for it. It never hurt, and wasn't intended to. It was only a rebuke. What he possessed was a dedication to train kids. Yes, you train them. Some spank, and I am not against that. My dad wore out belts on me and my brother, and we still turned out alright. I still say that the secret is in the timing, and the surety of punishment. All punishment should be swift, almost coinciding with the behavior. It must also be a sure thing.
The problem with kids now days is daycare workers don't punish them swiftly.
If you want your kids to be good, you must build a foundation. Spankings will not substitute for time spent with them. My grandfather spent his every waking moment making us work, and then watching us play. Every minute of every day spent with him was about learning, love, and discipline (self discipline). I have resolved to spend every minute of every day teaching my son in the same ways. I may have to spank, but hopefully, that will be rare indeed. His respect for me will be absolute. I will earn that respect.
My absolute favorite verse is: "Raise up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Never more true words spoken.
Hmmm...as much as I despise modern hippie parenting techniques, I myself would lay off the spanking if I had a child. Hell, I don't hit my own dog, but thats because I know from trial and error that type of training doesn't work. Off the topic of spanking, I went to this hippie Montessori wannabe school where you weren't allowed to bring toy guns or swords to class (this was back in the 80's, preColumbine hysteria). I made a toy gun out of two Lincoln Logs, only to be scolded by some fat, smelly hippie teacher (why do hippies insist on smelling so bad ?) how guns were evil and that if I played with these toys, I would one day go to jail. The teacher talked to my Mom after class telling her she was "concerned for my safety and well being". Even back then at the age of 7 I could smell the B.S. being laid on thick by the overexcited hippie woman. Her rank birkenstocks probably spawned more violent reactions than my two lincoln logs.
Back OT, later on in Catholic school (I refused to go to the hippie school after the third grade) I remember beating the crap out of a kid and justifying it to myself that he needed to be taught a lesson. All this over a basketball game, after seeing how badly I had injured him, I quickly saw the error in my Dad's parenting techniques. Getting spanked because I screwed up in school, or teased my sister or whatever was inneffective. All it did was teach me to lie to avoid punishment, and that hurting someone was an appropriate way to solve a problem. I would react violently to people for the most absurd reasons, I felt right for doing it too, the other kids were scared of me and they respected the fact that if they didn't do what I said, they would get their asses kicked. I was a bully, so was my father, spanking works on the fear principle, and thats no way to grow up, being scared of your own parent.
Remember nurture/nature both play equal parts in the equation. My father, as a parent sucked (granted there were PLENTY worse, all in all he's a great guy) however, inspite of his bad parenting, I turned out ok because I took the initiative in getting control of my situation and deep down I was a decent guy. There are plenty of F'ups who had great parents, and likewise many a great people rose out of the ashes of a dysfunctional family. Just because your Dad spanked you and you turned out great doesn't mean it is appropriate for everyone else.
Back OT, later on in Catholic school (I refused to go to the hippie school after the third grade) I remember beating the crap out of a kid and justifying it to myself that he needed to be taught a lesson. All this over a basketball game, after seeing how badly I had injured him, I quickly saw the error in my Dad's parenting techniques. Getting spanked because I screwed up in school, or teased my sister or whatever was inneffective. All it did was teach me to lie to avoid punishment, and that hurting someone was an appropriate way to solve a problem. I would react violently to people for the most absurd reasons, I felt right for doing it too, the other kids were scared of me and they respected the fact that if they didn't do what I said, they would get their asses kicked. I was a bully, so was my father, spanking works on the fear principle, and thats no way to grow up, being scared of your own parent.
Remember nurture/nature both play equal parts in the equation. My father, as a parent sucked (granted there were PLENTY worse, all in all he's a great guy) however, inspite of his bad parenting, I turned out ok because I took the initiative in getting control of my situation and deep down I was a decent guy. There are plenty of F'ups who had great parents, and likewise many a great people rose out of the ashes of a dysfunctional family. Just because your Dad spanked you and you turned out great doesn't mean it is appropriate for everyone else.
Spanking as a training option for a young child, conducted by a calm parent, is helpful in teaching self-discipline and right actions. 'Hitting' as a means of venting the parent's anger is usually not helpful.
The context of the rest of the parent-child relationship is also of great importance. The often drunk, usually absent father giving an occasional smack will be perceived incredibly differently than the stay-at-home parent who cares for the child 24/7.
When discussing the subject of spanking, it's best to make some distinctions in how they're generally done.
That said, I'm with Jerry M, and thankful he took the time to write, 'cause I don't have the time.
To bring it back on topic,
, spanking is very similar to the question of gun ownership: are they good or evil? Answer: it depends on how they are handled.
--Denise
The context of the rest of the parent-child relationship is also of great importance. The often drunk, usually absent father giving an occasional smack will be perceived incredibly differently than the stay-at-home parent who cares for the child 24/7.
When discussing the subject of spanking, it's best to make some distinctions in how they're generally done.
That said, I'm with Jerry M, and thankful he took the time to write, 'cause I don't have the time.
To bring it back on topic,
, spanking is very similar to the question of gun ownership: are they good or evil? Answer: it depends on how they are handled. --Denise
Ed Brunner
New member
My father told me that any adult who cannot out-think a child should not have one.
If you are smarter than your child, AND IF YOU HAVE THE TIME, you can actually explain and discuss behavior, safety, morality and rules with your child. I have seen this done and I know it works.
As an aside, I am personally offended when someone ridicules another's religious beliefs. I do not believe that this should be tolerated on this forum. We have threads closed for many seemingly petty infractions, yet ridicule of someone's religion goes unchallenged.
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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."
Better days to be,
Ed
If you are smarter than your child, AND IF YOU HAVE THE TIME, you can actually explain and discuss behavior, safety, morality and rules with your child. I have seen this done and I know it works.
As an aside, I am personally offended when someone ridicules another's religious beliefs. I do not believe that this should be tolerated on this forum. We have threads closed for many seemingly petty infractions, yet ridicule of someone's religion goes unchallenged.
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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."
Better days to be,
Ed
glockguy45
New member
Who's says its wrong to spank your child???
Ed,
With all due respect, I read back over Spectre's post, and, though his personal sentiments *were* pretty visible through tone, he did not appear to be ridiculing anyone's religion. He simply pointed out that, if you want to use the bible to back up an argument for corporal punishment, you *can*, without stretching, take it all the way to capital punishment.
I do agree that leaving a thread open following such a remark is pretty unprecedented for TFL. I've had threads closed on me for less, along with a hearty verbal spanking from the powers that be --not God, not Allah, not even the Prince of Lies -- just the good old staff, which is largely Christian, just like the good old US of A. Come on, cut us a break once in a while. You know you guys are in the mass majority here. Let us have our say without immediately slamming the lock on, huh? Spectre wasn't rude or abusive. He was just making a point. Isn't discourse and debate what we want here?
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*quack*
With all due respect, I read back over Spectre's post, and, though his personal sentiments *were* pretty visible through tone, he did not appear to be ridiculing anyone's religion. He simply pointed out that, if you want to use the bible to back up an argument for corporal punishment, you *can*, without stretching, take it all the way to capital punishment.
I do agree that leaving a thread open following such a remark is pretty unprecedented for TFL. I've had threads closed on me for less, along with a hearty verbal spanking from the powers that be --not God, not Allah, not even the Prince of Lies -- just the good old staff, which is largely Christian, just like the good old US of A. Come on, cut us a break once in a while. You know you guys are in the mass majority here. Let us have our say without immediately slamming the lock on, huh? Spectre wasn't rude or abusive. He was just making a point. Isn't discourse and debate what we want here?
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*quack*
Keiller TN
New member
Spectre, I started to e-mail you but then realized that slickwillie@trust-me.com ain't going anywhere, so here's the response:
I think Jerry's answer was a good one. It sounds like you know your Scripture well. You are probably aware that the passage I cited is directed to the Jewish Christians. That passage uses the relationship of a father and a son as a basis for the message about God disciplining His children. Since the passage treats discipline as a universal, I use it that way, too. Spanking is one method of discipline. The passage you referenced was specifically for the Jewish nation. I am not a part of the Jewish nation.
I am sorry to hear of your bad experience growing up. Many have had that. I had a tough time, too. I think my dad really wanted to do a good job of parenting and I love him for trying. But I don't think he had the power to do it right. There are a lot of good memories for me as a child, too. We still have one child at home and I use corporal discipline rarely. It is not a major thing that some people must think it is. Yes, for some people it is overuse and done improperly. I would never have used it with my 5 kids if I had not been instructed with Scripture to use it. It is just not a popular choice for raising kids. As a matter of fact, the Social Services would like to have it stopped. I have had trouble with them over it before, but it is a conviction for me and not negotiable. So, they will have to pry the rod from my cold dead hands.
I respect you and your right to voice your opinion. I do wonder why you think ideas with a Biblical basis (religious) are not welcome in general conversation? It seems to me that everyone has a foundation of some kind for their ideas. Why is it wrong to have a religious basis? Why does that not count? I'm not in favour of forcing my ideas on you if that is your concern. I believe that truth is to be imparted in love.
The top of the day to you.
Keiller
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 30, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 30, 2000).]
I think Jerry's answer was a good one. It sounds like you know your Scripture well. You are probably aware that the passage I cited is directed to the Jewish Christians. That passage uses the relationship of a father and a son as a basis for the message about God disciplining His children. Since the passage treats discipline as a universal, I use it that way, too. Spanking is one method of discipline. The passage you referenced was specifically for the Jewish nation. I am not a part of the Jewish nation.
I am sorry to hear of your bad experience growing up. Many have had that. I had a tough time, too. I think my dad really wanted to do a good job of parenting and I love him for trying. But I don't think he had the power to do it right. There are a lot of good memories for me as a child, too. We still have one child at home and I use corporal discipline rarely. It is not a major thing that some people must think it is. Yes, for some people it is overuse and done improperly. I would never have used it with my 5 kids if I had not been instructed with Scripture to use it. It is just not a popular choice for raising kids. As a matter of fact, the Social Services would like to have it stopped. I have had trouble with them over it before, but it is a conviction for me and not negotiable. So, they will have to pry the rod from my cold dead hands.
I respect you and your right to voice your opinion. I do wonder why you think ideas with a Biblical basis (religious) are not welcome in general conversation? It seems to me that everyone has a foundation of some kind for their ideas. Why is it wrong to have a religious basis? Why does that not count? I'm not in favour of forcing my ideas on you if that is your concern. I believe that truth is to be imparted in love.
The top of the day to you.
Keiller
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 30, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keiller TN (edited October 30, 2000).]
I was not a bad kid but on occasion I did screw up and on those occasions I was spanked. Reflecting back, there was never any real physical pain involved. But the fact that mom or dad were disappointed in me enough to lay hands on me was much more devastating than any physical pain might have been. I love them and they love me and to have committed an act that merited punishment and the disppointment in their eyes was much more punishing than any little smack might have been. If my boy screws up a year from now when he is old enough to understand the concept of cause/effect AND than I love the little guy with every fibre, I will spank him, though I suspect my heart will be breaking and my blows will suffer in their strength.
stormrifle
Inactive
Current research indicates that spanking is no more effective than other forms of discipline. The key is consistently administering discipline. It's really a matter of choice.
Keiller- and others-
I welcome polite and thoughtful discourse. Anyone is always free to email me. The address is valid, just a jibe at Herr Clinton.
I enjoyed reading Tamara's post. At the end, I think she made my point- I was always much more concerned about what my parents thought than physical pain (which was genuinely present, apparently unlike some others' experience). All that "spanking" taught me, was that it was okay to hurt the people you love, if they don't do what you want. As I, for all practical purposes, raised my younger brother and sister for much of their younger life, I was abusive. It is not pleasant for me to think of deliberately hurting those I love, for no other reason than they were children, doing childish things. So I was taught, and so I did. When I became a man, I put away childish things.
Now, I will agree that my experience was not typical. I think most here, should I go into detail, would agree that I was abused. I do not expect rational, loving parents to go to the extremes that mine did. I will still never strike my children, if I am blessed with any.
Incidentally, Proverbs 20:30 is about how striking hard enough to leave marks "cleanseth away evil". Since abuse can be spiritual and physical, expect no surprise at my anger at those in my past who used their religion to justify their prejudices. If you experience some untoward fallout in the present, I apologize- but please know what you claim to believe, if you feel the need to share it.
Jerry! Ah, my friend.
Mat 5:17-19 (if under law)
Sir, I do not think my personal experience is "Pretentious, insincere, or empty language".
Mat 7:22-23
Eccle 1:9-10 (nothing new- guess this would include people, huh?)
You seem to just go on a general ramble toward the end. If you have read what I have written in this and over 1,000 other posts, you know I
1. Understand "the Word" painfully well.
2. Do not "encourage" any type of irresponsible decision making, including
3. "Kill the child" !
4. I hunt.
5. (see #1) I understand the poorly translated {in English) difference between murder and self-defense
6. "A child is not innocent, and will get away with whatever he can?" Regardless of my memories- starting at four- of often deliberately making choices that I thought my parents would approve of, just because I valued their esteem? Of choosing not to do the #$%^ "hokey-pokey" because I thought it was "dancing" and "wrong" at that age? I hardly think I am alone in being conscientous. No that isn't "obvious to me". I would suggest "preparing for adulthood" does not include the idea that one can just beat the **** out of anyone one disagrees with, but I'm here in Atlanta, GA, if you disagree with me. Address upon request.
7. I've seen the results, thank you very much. They do speak for themselves.
I welcome polite and thoughtful discourse. Anyone is always free to email me. The address is valid, just a jibe at Herr Clinton.
I enjoyed reading Tamara's post. At the end, I think she made my point- I was always much more concerned about what my parents thought than physical pain (which was genuinely present, apparently unlike some others' experience). All that "spanking" taught me, was that it was okay to hurt the people you love, if they don't do what you want. As I, for all practical purposes, raised my younger brother and sister for much of their younger life, I was abusive. It is not pleasant for me to think of deliberately hurting those I love, for no other reason than they were children, doing childish things. So I was taught, and so I did. When I became a man, I put away childish things.
Now, I will agree that my experience was not typical. I think most here, should I go into detail, would agree that I was abused. I do not expect rational, loving parents to go to the extremes that mine did. I will still never strike my children, if I am blessed with any.
Incidentally, Proverbs 20:30 is about how striking hard enough to leave marks "cleanseth away evil". Since abuse can be spiritual and physical, expect no surprise at my anger at those in my past who used their religion to justify their prejudices. If you experience some untoward fallout in the present, I apologize- but please know what you claim to believe, if you feel the need to share it.
Jerry! Ah, my friend.
Mat 5:17-19 (if under law)
Sir, I do not think my personal experience is "Pretentious, insincere, or empty language".
Mat 7:22-23
Eccle 1:9-10 (nothing new- guess this would include people, huh?)
You seem to just go on a general ramble toward the end. If you have read what I have written in this and over 1,000 other posts, you know I
1. Understand "the Word" painfully well.
2. Do not "encourage" any type of irresponsible decision making, including
3. "Kill the child" !
4. I hunt.
5. (see #1) I understand the poorly translated {in English) difference between murder and self-defense
6. "A child is not innocent, and will get away with whatever he can?" Regardless of my memories- starting at four- of often deliberately making choices that I thought my parents would approve of, just because I valued their esteem? Of choosing not to do the #$%^ "hokey-pokey" because I thought it was "dancing" and "wrong" at that age? I hardly think I am alone in being conscientous. No that isn't "obvious to me". I would suggest "preparing for adulthood" does not include the idea that one can just beat the **** out of anyone one disagrees with, but I'm here in Atlanta, GA, if you disagree with me. Address upon request.
7. I've seen the results, thank you very much. They do speak for themselves.
Off topic posts.. 
Whatever.
I had my pants dusted regularly as a child (I'm now 22) and was among the last generation of kids that still received spanking as a punishment in Elementary school. I have seen this "time-out" crap along with other reward/scare tatics and they have all but failed. I have come to the realization that spanking is the only manner in which most children can be "learned" properly. I have also realized that some children can not be repremanded (any way) successfully.. and others need little repremanding to begin with.
I suppose I'll have to wait until I have children of my own before I can spout of anything else that I really can't claim as being true.
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WARNING: This post may be another "self-aggrandizing attempt to cause needless controversy, argument, distraction"
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Whatever. I had my pants dusted regularly as a child (I'm now 22) and was among the last generation of kids that still received spanking as a punishment in Elementary school. I have seen this "time-out" crap along with other reward/scare tatics and they have all but failed. I have come to the realization that spanking is the only manner in which most children can be "learned" properly. I have also realized that some children can not be repremanded (any way) successfully.. and others need little repremanding to begin with.
I suppose I'll have to wait until I have children of my own before I can spout of anything else that I really can't claim as being true.
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WARNING: This post may be another "self-aggrandizing attempt to cause needless controversy, argument, distraction"
-*-
Keepin' the FUD Legacy Alive! Check us out @ FUD's Fan Club!
Spectre,
Christ came to fulfill the Law and He did so. However, by His obedience and sacrifice on the cross He freed us from the Law. Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
I am assuming that your listing of the Matthew passages was meant to imply that the Law does apply to us. If you think we are under Law you are mistaken. The Law was given to teach us than man could not satisfy the holy demands of God and show us our need for a Savior. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
If you do know the Word you are guilty of disobeying it with your attitudes regarding spanking since the Word is clear on that issue.
You seem not to understand the difference between BEATING a child and using spanking to discipline when other means fail. I bet you have never raised a child. When you have raised several then tell me about spanking and I will pay attention. In the meantime i have raised two, but have friends who have raised as many as nine and they all spanked them occasionally. Spanking has worked in our own nation for 200 or so years. We were a better nation when we disciplined our children, sometimes with spanking. Now the liberals have convinced the gullible that this is bad, and it has resulted in a generation of children out-of-control and violent beyond our imaginations 40 years ago.
Your statement: ["I would suggest "preparing for adulthood" does not include the idea that one can just beat the **** out of anyone on disagrees with, but I'm here in Atlanta, GA, if you disagree with me. Address upon request."] indicates that you need to exercise more self control and not let this argument anger you to the extent that you issue such a challenge. It is an emotional outburst that is neither mature nor in context with spanking one's children to teach them discipline and to become adults who can function and contribute to the nation as adults.
I think I have said what I can say regarding this issue. Further discussion seems unprofitable from my viewpoint.
If you would like to discuss Law and Grace according to the Word let me know. Jerry
[This message has been edited by JerryM (edited October 30, 2000).]
Christ came to fulfill the Law and He did so. However, by His obedience and sacrifice on the cross He freed us from the Law. Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
I am assuming that your listing of the Matthew passages was meant to imply that the Law does apply to us. If you think we are under Law you are mistaken. The Law was given to teach us than man could not satisfy the holy demands of God and show us our need for a Savior. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
If you do know the Word you are guilty of disobeying it with your attitudes regarding spanking since the Word is clear on that issue.
You seem not to understand the difference between BEATING a child and using spanking to discipline when other means fail. I bet you have never raised a child. When you have raised several then tell me about spanking and I will pay attention. In the meantime i have raised two, but have friends who have raised as many as nine and they all spanked them occasionally. Spanking has worked in our own nation for 200 or so years. We were a better nation when we disciplined our children, sometimes with spanking. Now the liberals have convinced the gullible that this is bad, and it has resulted in a generation of children out-of-control and violent beyond our imaginations 40 years ago.
Your statement: ["I would suggest "preparing for adulthood" does not include the idea that one can just beat the **** out of anyone on disagrees with, but I'm here in Atlanta, GA, if you disagree with me. Address upon request."] indicates that you need to exercise more self control and not let this argument anger you to the extent that you issue such a challenge. It is an emotional outburst that is neither mature nor in context with spanking one's children to teach them discipline and to become adults who can function and contribute to the nation as adults.
I think I have said what I can say regarding this issue. Further discussion seems unprofitable from my viewpoint.
If you would like to discuss Law and Grace according to the Word let me know. Jerry
[This message has been edited by JerryM (edited October 30, 2000).]
Yep. Y'all are right. This thread should have been closed from the git go. I left it open because I thought we might discuss causes of violent crime. Instead, we took the opportunity to hack at each others' religious views.
Ya know, an occasional quote is one thing. Let's take the rest of it somewhere else. Such discussions are valid, important, and useful - but not TFL-related.
Closed.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 31, 2000).]
Ya know, an occasional quote is one thing. Let's take the rest of it somewhere else. Such discussions are valid, important, and useful - but not TFL-related.
Closed.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 31, 2000).]
- Status