SPANKING a child teaches them to be VIOLENT?

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jdthaddeus

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Hello,

I live currently in Kalifornica (eagar to leave). My wife works as an "au pair" or nanny for the "wealthy" people around here that can afford the extremely high rate of pay that she demands.
She has nannied for several families in the last few years and dealt with many children and parents in their own homes (people are very different in their own homes than what we see in public).
Some of these families have been using the same following line with her...and I don't know where they hear it...but there is a prevalent thought that "spanking a child teaches them violence". So, many of these families refuse to spank their children and use all kinds of punishment/reward tactics in dealing with their kids (anything but spanking). My wife sees the results and has to deal with these kids, so she has some personal firsthand feelings on this topic, based on experience with many types of parents.
I will share her stories of working with these families later, but first I want to hear people's thoughts on this modern dogma that spanking a child teaches them violence.


I would like to know all of your opinions and arguments on this belief, pro and con.


If you do believe that spanking a child does teach them violence, then I would like to know why. Don't worry, you won't be the first to say this to me and I am not going to rip your head off for your parenting style (every kid and situation is different anyway). But, you will be the first to have to support this argument (most people cannot, even if I did ask them to). I want to know first of all, WHY you think that spanking teaches violence, and secondly I want some proof on how it does and proof that it does. Perhaps some research to prove the point, or something more than rhetoric and opinion? I sincerely need some enlightenment here on where the proof is that this statement is based upon.


If you, on the other hand, think that spanking does NOT teach a child violence, then how about some counter arguments to the claim? How about some intelligent counter discussion on the flaws of this argument and proof that it is flawed? Research or evidence and personal experience that there is no correlation between spanking and violence, or even proof that spanking prevents violence?



I am soon to have my own children, and I want to discuss this before they come. If not to forge my own opinion, or just to be able to argue my points later on. I need to know why people feel this way, and if it is correct. If it is not true that spanking teaches children violence, then I want to know why and how this popular statement of dogma is flawed.

Thank you for the discussion!




[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
I am 24 years old. I was spanked as a child. If it taught violence I would be on death row by now!

Spanking WITH proper upbringing and lots o love and can be a good thing if done properly! :D

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Try to take away my gun...and you will see my 2nd Amendment Right in ACTION!!! -Me

The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson
 
Daddy always told my teachers the following: "If he needs some leather, put it on him."
I got spanked by hand and belted, but never anyplace that I didn't have plenty of padding.
If the PC crowd tries to pick up Daddy for abuse - they will then see violence - from me.

[This message has been edited by TMoney (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
I think that just as guns can be used for the defense of goodness or the pursuit of evil, spanking can also go both ways.

I believe that spanking done in a sudden manner by an angry parent can indeed teach a child to vent his or her anger with violence. I’ve watched many times the sad irony of an irate mother jerking her child into the air and begin spanking (in tempo) with screams of “DON’T... HIT... YOUR... SIS... TER!!” I’m no psychologist but I fail to see any long term positive effects with this action.

On the other hand, I believe that spanking, as a punishment - not as a venting of anger, can teach a child respect when done by a calm, rational and loving parent. Like all punishments, it is only fair if the child understands beforehand what the consequences of his/her behavior will bring.

Above all, it is a matter of choice. I know many good parents who do not believe in spanking a child and they have still managed to raise fine people. I have only had to spank my sons once each. Since then, the threat of a spanking has been enough to help them put more thought into their actions. It is my hope that by making them understand that actions have consequences at a simple age, they will continue to think in that manner as they go through life and the actions and consequences become more complex.

I have no professional credentials to back up my feelings other than my experience as a father, a former child and as a witness to the experiences of the countless children and parents in my life. I’m not done being a father yet so my opinions may change ;).
 
I believe in spanking as a form of punishment. It should be the last resort in a chain of reward/punishmnet schemes. It should NEVER be done out of anger.
I say it should be the last link in the chain rather than the first because I have seen way too many parents who, when faced with a bad behavior, immediately smack their kid. The child becomes inured, expects it, and it becomes a form of attention-getting. The child continues to perform the behavior simply to push the boundaries and to recieve attention, negating the reason you administered the punishment in the first place. A lot of parents administer corporal punishment with anger in their voices and on their faces, which sends the wrong message- if you're angry and someone does something you don't like then the first response is assault. There is still a place in civilization for physicality but IMHO it exists as a last measure rather than a first response.

Spanking dealt sparingly and with calm demeanor teaches kids the concept of action and consequences. I have a lot of students who have no concept of what it means to have consequences. They will do incredibly harmful but immediately self-agradizing behaviors (stealing, drugs, random sex... I hear a LOT on Monday mornings) and they believe that they are coated with some sort of non-stick, invulnerable substance because nothing bad could ever happen to them. I used to get angry at them but then I had conferences with their parents and I said, " Oh, that's why." By not teaching your kids the logic of consequences then you are doing them a disservice. Kids are actually confused and surprised when they get into trouble at school or with the police it is the first time they have dealt with logical conclusions to their actions.

So, why spanking? At early ages kids don't understand abstract thought. If a little kid wants to eat a whole bag of cookies you can't sit down and reason with them about how such an action will result in unwanted weight gain, will make them too full to eat a balanced meal with essential vitamins and other nutrients... at that stage the child only understands the wants of the moment. Even at an early age a child can understand that if they don't do what mommy or daddy say then they get a pop on the keister. That's something concrete that they can handle mentally.
Anyway, that's my opinion

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
Originally, up until about 1948, when all of the yuppies were born, the level mankind evolved to was basically screwwing :) and war making. Since the enlightened movement, [now] personkind has evolved thanks to Walt Cronkite (sp?), Blather, TV and the I-Net vision of violentless Utopian subjects. The reason children must not be spanked is that we only have to to say, "Stop." The time out corner is also an affective, if not, tortuous (physial and emotional abandonment). The most effective is limiting their allowance to just $400 a week out of the usual $450 I usually give them. This may seem too low to you, but I believe in tough love. One time, I cut them off completely, but they kept calling my wife and I when we were in Europe and asking for stuff. I find it much better that they fend for themselves- they can too. Hu-person beings are truly wonderful, non-violent creatures.

Unfortunately it is you brutish thugs that have not evolved from your cro-magnon, pay per view ways. You want that second ammendment and your spanking because you just can not handle simple disciplanary actions like turing the cell phone off- you do not have to listen that way.

I once caught the live in 7 day/week nanny scolding my son for setting fire to his cat. I fired her on the spot! I gave the litter tyke (4 years old) a shot of whiskey and an aspirin to calm his nerves. I then gave him his favorite red crayon and x-acto knife. He is so creative with those two things; his mother and I, when we were out on vaction called home and let his nanny know that he is not to be disturbed when the creative juices are flowing.

:rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
This is really off-topic, but what the heck, I'll bite.

I've been saying for years that well behaved children went out of style the same year that spanking did.

And no, I don't have any studies to back that up -- but even a cursory reading of literature written for and about children from two generations ago indicates something has sure changed.

pax

"Before I got married, I had six theories about bringing up children. Now I have six children and no theories." -- John Wilmot
 
For all the spankers:
Is it fear of a spanking, or fear of the spanker?

pax,
As far as topical. Well, I could make a solid argument that what is going on now in the country points out my question. Do people fear the law, or are they afraid of the law. Fear of the law is a good thing. Afraid of the law, is a terrible thing. Remember, fear means respect, not afraid. Really, this topic is more central to political than general. Right now, Gore and the Democrats are trying their best to make the American public afraid.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
The book of Hebrews says it well:
"If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons." (12:7,8) There is more in that chapter.
It is hard to keep anger separated from spankings. That, of course is important.
smileJap.gif



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"Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain that build it:
except the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain." (Psalm 127:1)

The Second Amendment rights have not kept pace with the First.

"Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility."
(Alexander Solzhenitzyn)
 
I oppose corporal punishment as it does teach children to vent their anger and frustration by violence. That said I think there are better ways to impose discipline and respect. A spanking is often worthless as its quickly followed by all rewards given by the parent to make up for the violence imposed on a child. The child learns nothing. Far better is to teach children moral and ethical lessons. To impose punishments such as keeping them inside instead of letting them play with their friends, not allowing them to watch television, and refusing to purchase their favorite foods. Punishments such as this are long term, they cannot be done for only an hour or day. During the time of the punishment the child has time to reflect on the cause of the punishment.

I take as examples the most disciplined families that I know, none of them hit their children. On the other hand I know of two families that routinely hit their children, the kids are savages. It would be interesting to see the results of long term studies on a large number of families to determine which are more successful at raising children, those that spank, those that don't spank, those that are ethical and moral but don't spank, and those that are ethical and moral but do spank.

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"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
 
I am 24 years old and my brother is 22. We were spanked ALL THE TIME. Belts, spoons, hands, you name it. My parents were frustrated. They tried everything nut nothing ever worked. I actually feel bad for the torment we caused my poor folks.
The only violence we przcticed was beating each other up, but don't all bros 2 years apart do that? Of course!!
The one thing that would get us to behave is when dad threatened to leave us at home when he went to the range.
Have a good day
Jeepster

Jeepster
 
What the heck, I've already been spanked by the admins this week for being off topic, so I'll bite too.

When I was a kid, a lot of kids I knew stole candy from stores. I didn't, because I was afraid of that spanking I'd get!

Kids I knew lied -- but I didn't, because I knew there'd be a spanking.

Basically, whatever naughty thing I was tempted to do, I always thought twice because there was the certainty of a spanking.

This is not to say I was never naughty. I got my share of spankings! But I stayed a lot closer to that line because I had a good healthy fear of punishment.

I am a teacher now, and an upstanding citizen -- thanks to my "mean" parents.

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*quack*
 
I only spanked my daughter twice in her life. She is now approaching her 21st b-day.
In both cases, she had done something that she knew she should not do, because she had been told doing it was dangerous. Spanking helped reinforce the message that "doing such and so can cause you to be hurt badly, perhaps killed."

It infuriates me to see parents swatting kids butts or hands in the lines at the store simply because they're tired and whiney, or begging for this or that. SWAT! "I told you not to do that!" "Hush! Be quiet!" Done often enough, this could indeed teach a child that using force is the way to achieve your ends.

Judiciously applied, spankings can teach a child that certain actions result in painful consequences. Used thoughtlessly, spanking can teach a child that violence can get you what you want.


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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
I was spanked as a kid, and If my kids aren't the saints I'm hoping they'll be they'll probably get spankings too. My mom would use a ruler, and usually break it, this was the hardest on me, cuz I had to act like I was crying, long enough to run up to my room, and then burst out laughing. If I started laughing before I got my room door closed, then I was in for it, and would get a spanking from my dad.
My dads spanking were no laughing matter, 1-3 open handed swats on my bum were enough to realize that what ever I had done, was not to be done again. I probably got less than 10 good spankings from my dad, cuz they were if I'd really been bad, and at about 12 the spankings stopped and were taken over by groundings, which were worse. I would much rather have had a whipping, then to be grounded from hanging out with my friends for a week, or more. This merit system is kinda based on the wrong system. You punish people when they're bad, not reward them when they're good. This would be like the federal government constantly rewarding it's people, but then when they kill somebody, or rob a bank, they say "bad" and they don't get they're reward for that day..That don't make sense. You punish when they deserve it, and They'll learn.

And about violence, all people and animals have it in them. They just need to supress it unless it's an appropriate time to show it.
 
I got many spankings and if you think I'm violent then I will rape your dog :). Just kidding.
I never got spankings, got punched in the mouth a few times as a teen when I really needed it, and I did really need it. I have a lot of respect for my father because he talked to us kids before and after we did anything wrong. That was usually enough for us, Dad could talk for hours. :)
The only time I spank my child is when he does something dangerous. He is under two and you can't reason with him when it comes to deadly things. As he grows older he will get spankings if he needs them, but I will follow my fathers example and talk to him as much as possible so that he will know the rules.

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chadintex@hotmail.com
 
This nonsense is relatively recent in our history. At least from my generation back spanking was a proven way to correct children. It doesn't set well with the liberal crowd, but there is a necessity for children to learn early in life that there are consequences for their actions. The consequences may in fact be very unpleasant. When we spanked and disciplined our children we raised a better generation, which had learned self-discipline and which had a respect for authority. Some degree of fear of consequences is necessary to properly raise a child. Today there is no fear or respect in the minds of most of the youth. We were a much better nation before this liberal nonsense was foisted on parents. Here is what our Creator said about raising and spanking a child.
Proverbs 22:6 " Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Notice that the proverb does not say the way he WANTS to go, but as he should to go.
Proverbs 22:15 "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Proverbs 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."
Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
I think this is clear enough. Children are not good and have to be taught bad. They are naturally bad, as is all mankind, and must be taught what is right. I only raised two using these principles and both have turned out in a way to make me proud of them. I have friends who have raised up to 9 by the same principles, and the results have been exemplary. There are exceptions of course, but spanking a child from time to time is necessary for the proper "raising." Jerry
 
Not too much to say on this subject but this.Take a look at the crime rate of CHILDREN now verses when spanking was a normal way of disipline.See the difference?Dr.Spock if still alive should be hung by his neck until dead for crimes against humanity.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Those of you who backed up your statements with the word of God were correct. Mohammed (PBUH), the prophet of the only true God, says in the Hadith that it is permissible to spank your children lightly if they will not learn their ra'kahs (prayers) by the age of ten. Also, Hammudah Abd al Ati writes of this statement in The Family Structure in Islam: ". . .they should be disciplined by physical means --- without causing them harm or injury, of course --- only to show disapproval of their behavior." I assume this punishment is appropriate for other occasions where discipline is warranted as well.

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*quack*

[This message has been edited by duck hunt (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
Keiller and Jerry,

I must say, I love when people use the Bible to reinforce their opinion! Love it, I say. Of course, if you believe some, you must believe all, right? Good. So, both of you gentlemen also agree that one should kill your children if they won't obey you? You do? Deuteronomy{21:18}
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son,
who will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother...
{21:19}
then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him...
{21:21}
All the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones: so shall you put away the evil from the midst of you; and all
Israel shall hear, and fear. (no ****)

So, if you don't believe this, why don't you just admit that spanking is your personal preference, instead of using some religious teaching as "proof" that it's good and right? This is the problem with muddling good conversation with religion. Bah.

Anyway, I was spanked as a child. A lot. Sometimes hard enough to leave bruises (which, incidentally, are Biblical, too- but, I digress). The thing is, I don't recall ever "doing the right thing" because I was afraid of being physically punished. I was concerned with my parents opinion. On the other hand, fear of my overbearing parents' wrathful punishment did lead me to be a worse child, instilling habits of deceitfulness.

It took me years to begin living in such a manner that I did not use violence when frustrated. I still struggle, every now and then, with the urge to do so.

"Spanking" did nothing good for me. In the long run, what did beating me for being a child accomplish? There are few things now that rouse my ire like hearing comments from adults about how some child "just needs a good beating". Methinks 'tis not the child. I would probably say the child needs some good parenting, and a lot of love.

Thad, you may wish to study societies that have not traditionally used striking children as a means of control. I believe some Native American tribes, and I know Japanese families, do not tend to hurt their children to control them. I have not done enough research on it myself, but my initial readings have lead me to believe that social pressure to "do the right thing" is ultimately more effective.

I know you are a student of human nature. I am NOT suggesting that actions do not have consequences. What I am suggesting is that we should not deliberately use verbal or physical violence except in self-defense.

I have found that love is really the greatest controlling force. Not fear.
 
I'm personally thinking about a shock collar if I ever have children.

You never have to lay a hand on them, but they know when they're doing something they shouldn't. :)

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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
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