something that we in the U.S. should perhaps consider

alan

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Murder They Wrote: Radical Islam Eludes Editorialists
By Sherrie Gossett | November 17, 2004 Van Gogh was under a death threat ever since he produced a 10-minute film called "Submission," about Muslim women who are the victims of domestic abuse. Send this page to a friend
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The Dutch melting pot has turned into a boiling pot, as public indignation rises over the Amsterdam murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a young Islamic radical. The morning of November 2, the killer emptied a clip into Van Gogh, and then used a knife to almost sever his head. The killer also left a letter stabbed into Van Gogh's chest declaring Jihad on unbelievers generally and Dutch politicians specifically.

Van Gogh was under a death threat ever since he produced a 10-minute film called "Submission," about Muslim women who are the victims of domestic abuse.

Brought to the forefront are issues of race, immigration and integration, radical Islam, and freedom of speech.

Should Islamist immigrants be allowed "freedom" to practice the tenet of Sharia law which states, "The penalty for contempt of the Holy Prophet…is death and nothing else?" Clearly the answer is no, and the most cursory examination of the question reveals there are limits to freedom, especially license masquerading as freedom. Freedom needs to be circumscribed by an assumed responsibility to uphold the basics of civilized behavior. Where there is intransigence on this point, a societal collision is bound to occur, but it cannot fairly be said to be automatically the fault of the host country.

Should Islamists in the Netherlands¯or the U.S. for that matter¯be free to promote the execution of gays and the beating of women? Is it overreaction for Dutch leaders to worry about strategies by Islamists to actively promote Jihad, the killing of Western leaders, female circumcision and to portray unbelievers as "firewood for hell?" At what point does tolerance of such intolerance threaten freedom in society?

A Boston Globe editorial, noting recent retaliatory attacks against Mosques and schools, claims that "[J]ust below the surface of Holland's open society runs the molten lava of xenophobic intolerance." An L.A. Times article dated April 18, 2004 said that the Dutch were casting a "harsh eye toward immigrants." The article also cited fears "that the nation is failing at integration." A Reuters analysis piece dated November 3 noted a "rise in hostility to foreigners." The New York Times, in a slouchy November 5 editorial, opined, "The problem is not Muslim immigration, but a failure to plan for a smoother transition to a more diverse society."

In other words, the onus is on the Dutch government to do more to successfully integrate Muslims. Had the Dutch integration program met New York Times standards, then Mohammed wouldn't have tried to cut Theo's head off. There's no comment about the "more diverse society" desired by radical Islamists being one that makes room for execution of homosexuals, circumcision of girls, and women receiving 100 lashes if they lie to their husbands. The absurdity of so many editorials on the subject is evident from the reticence to assign responsibility for societal disruption to radical Muslims actually causing the disruption.

The simplistic editorials also ignore a universal tenet of Islamism, taught from Sudan to Sonoma, that Muslims should actively resist all attempts at integration. Indeed such attempts are often portrayed as a Western plot to usurp the latent power of Islam in the world. Resistance to integration is accompanied by the teaching that once Muslims are in a majority, the rule of the host country needs to become an Islamic theocracy. The real problem is radical Muslims who refuse to integrate and who support the breaking of Dutch law in order to uphold their religious and cultural values.

Meanwhile, Western media often remain pitifully disinclined to criticize a religious and pan-ethnic group ideology if it's not predominantly held by white people. Where are the editorials urging Islamists to stop balking at integration? Where are the editorials decrying the uncivilized teachings and behavior of radicals?

Are we really to believe that all religious and cultural values are equal including those which allow for rape victims to be punished by being murdered? A willingness to accept all racial, ethnic and religious groups as worthy of equality is not the same as pronouncing all of their cultural norms as egalitarian or even legally compatible with those in the West.

Integration and the maintenance of civilized society is a complex two-way street, and media should not treat as taboo core issues related to either one. Public debate often rides on the rails media have set down, and when the media are squeamish, evasive and dishonest in reporting of destructive Islamist activity overseas and in the U.S., we are on the fast track to a dangerous self-delusion whose end will be as violent as Van Gogh's murder.








Sherrie Gossett is Associate Editor of the AIM Report and can be reached at sherrie.gossett@aim.org
 
Islam, Culture War And Genocide

What we have here is a worldwide cultural war, declared by Islam against the rest of us. Once the majority population of a country is Islamic, the government WILL be taken over by Islamic believers, by ballot or by force.

When that happens, watch for a Nazi Germany redux, with the Nazis being played by the Islamic ruling party and the role of the Jews being played by the rest of us "infidels."

CAN YOU SAY GENOCIDE???

And the socialists/liberals have their panties in such a knot over President Bush and his Christian religous beliefs; exactly what horrors has Bush forced on America in the name of Christianity???

I guess a theocracy is okay, as long as it is Islamic.

I guess a genocide is okay, as long as its Cheistians and Americans filling the gas chambers and ovens.

So the Islamics want to take over our government and convert or exterminate us all - sounds like a f-ing wonderful reason for us to all turn in our guns to the government.
 
And the socialists/liberals have their panties in such a knot over President Bush and his Christian religous beliefs;
If you actually understand the issue, the main objections that "liberals" have to Bush's loud chest thumping about Christianity is this:

1) He should have kept his big mouth shut about how "God told him to go to war" when he was about to start a war with an Islamic nation. His big mouth has convinced about 3 billion people in the world that the war is about Christians eradicating Islam from the face of the earth. Bush even used the wrod "crusade" in a speech, and that has a real familiar ring in the Islamic world.

You and I may not think that is the reason for the war, but much of the earth does and we need some of those countries as our allies to win the WOT. They will never help us now.

2) This country was founded by men who KNEW that religion and government don't mix, and should never be allowed to mix. Period. I am religious and I am also a Christian, but I do NOT want my president making a point of getting his religion codified into law.

And stating the obvious: just because Islamofascism is a cancerous growth that grows into the government of Islamic countries does not mean we should "counter" that by infusing Christainity all through ours.
 
While ISLAM is often translated as PEACE the proper translation is SUBMISSION! ...At one time the arab world was very advanced including medicine and mathematics , after all we use arabic numerals ! When the crazys took over all that stopped and the arab and moslem world have not advanced since then. :mad:
 
Religions are by their nature antagonistic. In this country that factor is moderated by a codified set of legal protections. Saddam Hussein's government exercized a moderating force between religious elements in Iraq; thus among a majority of mainly Muslim groups, about one million Catholics and some others were allowed to live freely and prosperously. Now that that protection has been removed it is likely another matter altogether.

There has been a rise in nationalism in much of Europa after many years of progressively worsening global socialism. And parallel with the degenerative effects of socialism, the degenerative effects of "multi-culturalism" are starting to to become the focus of intense irritation over there as well. Religion is perhaps not so small a part of this. Although the mainstream media largely play it down (as they do with similar issues over here), things will likely heat up a great deal more in the near future.
 
Saddam Hussein's government exercized a moderating force between religious elements in Iraq; thus among a majority of mainly Muslim groups, about one million Catholics and some others were allowed to live freely and prosperously.
Presumably, by moderating force you mean he killed off those persons, families and sects who opposed him? From a strictly secular point of view of course.

Back O/T, the founding fathers did NOT know that religion and politics don't mix. They were all educated in the Enlightenment traditions and for them the concept of Humanism meant theistic humanism. Some, especially Franklin, must have been influenced by Voltaire and other more radical writers, but on the whole this nation was founded on the presumption that there was a Creator who set up rules for natural human behavior. One cannot get past the fact that political thought of the time was profoundly theistic, and based on a long lineage of Jewish and Christian philosphy. Most of what is good in our Constitution came from that influence and the influence of Masonry, a deistic religion which has co-existed in parallel with the others for centureis.

OTOH I agree the founding fathers did believe that there should not be an official state church. They came from many competing sects and knew that no nation could be based on religious hierarchy. Even so, trying to protect the US from Judeochristian influence is like trying to protect your house from your own children. It makes no sense. OTOH Islam is like the neighbor's children. There is a little bit of difference. You didn't take those kids to raise.

Concerning how to keep Islam from declaring itself a state religion, there is no way to do so. As long as there is no critical mass then the individual people are all good little droogies. Once we have a sufficient number of Islamic judges, legislators and other politicos then one day we will wake up to find Proposition 666 on the ballot, and that is the end of our secular government.
 
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Western Europe damned well better be alarmed. If trends continue, within a generation or two, western european civilization as we have known it for 1,000 years will be supplanted by Islam. They will have completed the mission begun by their Moorish and Ottoman ancestors centuries ago. I fear that the only force that will stem this movement will be one that is generated by a call to Nationalist, regional and even tribal interests and fears. It will be a fight of polar opposites making the Fascist/Communist war of the last century look like a picnic. It will be apocalyptic and Europe will be changed forever.

In the US, we are being acculturated by the left to accept the concept of diversity wholecloth and ignore the fundamental duty of demanding loyalty from the diverse populations that we accept. Historically, we haven't cared where folks came from, but once they took the oath they became Americans and were expected to support same. Folks who resist this, maintain a higher allegience to their place of origin or religion and/or actively seek to overthrow our government on political, social and/or religious grounds are nothing more than hostile agents and should be treated as such. There are Constitutional objections to the establishment of a 'state' religion but there is nothing that says that our government should not defend its citizens from a religion that demands total ideological submission from all that it encounters.
 
Seems to me that our ally Turkey is an Islamic country.
Think again. They are a secular nation whose predominant religion happens to be Islam.

The Turkish military, who established the modern Turkish state along with Mustafa Kemal, would not allow an Islamist regime. Modern Turkey grew out of the fanatically secular military and they've had no bones about getting involved, about every decade or so, to ensure that the government stays secular.
 
They are a secular nation whose predominant religion happens to be Islam.
Yet:
Once the majority population of a country is Islamic, the government WILL be taken over by Islamic believers, by ballot or by force.
Which is why I posted about Turkey.

So what should I think again about? Sounds like you're making my point. Islamic majority DOES NOT equal Islamic takeover.
 
MeekandMild
Presumably, by moderating force you mean he killed off those persons, families and sects who opposed him? From a strictly secular point of view of course

Well; he used a similar level of force to what we are in order to suppress those who would otherwise run amok there. It is largely the same people who he kept suppressed that are our antagonists now.
 
As the guy that talks to those antagonists,

I can assure that we see just as many of Saddam's protagonists as we do his antagonists, and lately even more.

I would advise you not to make statements based on a presumption, rather than experience or fact.

IZinterrogator
- Am there, doing that, T-shirt is on order -
 
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Not surprizing either. Watching the human costs as their country is torn down to consign it to being just another global socialist province - I have no doubt that the numbers of "non-muslim radicals" fighting our troops there will increase considerably. The Kurds that call themselves the Iraqi Communist Party have already been posting notices that they will be joining in too if they don't get their way for just one example.
 
"Evidence"? Just observations based on history, fact and all the reporting since the beginning of the first Gulf invasion under George Bush Sr.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq seems to have been presented by people who should know better as "something new". It's not new, and how a great deal of people there and in the region are reacting should hardly be a surprize either.
 
Tell you what,

I'll reply to this thread when you come up with meaningful, unbiased documents with their conclusions based in fact, not opinion. Or when you do something meaningful to change the current situation, instead of just talking about it. Until then...
 
Your view is no more any more meaningful than anyone elses. Just what is an "unbiased" source? Ari Fleischer? Mr Chalabi?

We are still stuck in Yugoslavia ten years later, and they are still murdering one another there. What has happened and is happening in Iraq and which way things are going to go are not that hard to figure out. I do not need a CIA brief to figure it out.

That is my view, and it is based on history and experience with these people. You believe what you please.
 
Well; he used a similar level of force to what we are in order to suppress those who would otherwise run amok there.
That is B.S. We have not used Sarin gas on the Kurds (in fact the Kurds have been very good to us) nor have we been using wood chippers to execute prisoners. Despite the bad press about our prison guards humiliating prisoners I've yet to read of any instances where we have buried them alive, tossed them from buildings, randomly broken bones nor other tortures.

Didya happen to notice what he does for a living and where he does it? Save your money and buy a clue.
Probably needs to buy a couple of vowels first. ;)
 
gburner,

So? He's interrogating some of the people there getting trolled in the net. It doesn't change facts in the middle east and central asia, their history and human nature. The Hussein government was a secular regime; no friend of the militant Muslim factions who are the biggest problem there and in the rest of the world.

As well as those loyal to Hussein who are also antagonistic to us, there are no doubt others who just want control of their own nation. They couldn't give a dam about the United Nations (rightly so), and they are no more likely to bow down to any other occupying force as a precursor to being another of Lord Curzon's client states just as before Hussein got off his leash.

Rumsfeld and co collectively have much military experience, are educated people, and had a hundred years of history and knowledge of the middle east and central asia at their disposal. And yet they walked us into this acting as if all that did not exist.

As for the problem with these people elsewhere like in Holland; I'd just as soon see their entire Muslim political element driven out of our country as well as europe altogether. If a limited number of these people want to come here, assimilate into our culture; fine. If they want to use political vehicles for change to our culture, they need to go back to their homelands and take care of themselves there. And just as predictable as Iraq, so is the net result of allowing the flood of immgration into western europe - and here. People Like conservative MP Enoch Powell wrote about this in the 1960s and accurately predicted the results.

There's nothing new under the sun.
 
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