Someone settle the 9mm vs. .40 debate...
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Mike Spight
New member
It just can't be done.
Regardless of how much data and shooting experience shows that shot placement coupled with adequate penetration is the key to handgun effectiveness, there will be those who still maintain that their pet caliber/brand of weapon is the best period, and those who use something else are, at best, low grade idiots. Oh well....whatever!
That, my friend, is just about it.
Mike
Regardless of how much data and shooting experience shows that shot placement coupled with adequate penetration is the key to handgun effectiveness, there will be those who still maintain that their pet caliber/brand of weapon is the best period, and those who use something else are, at best, low grade idiots. Oh well....whatever!
That, my friend, is just about it.
Mike
Jedi Oomodo
New member
MY wife swears by her P228 in 9mm. She is familiar with it, shoots well, and is confident. That, IMHO, is a large part of the game. The other part is- what does the bullet do once it hits the target (i.e. goblin)? A well-placed, well-designed 9mm is more effective than a poorly placed and designed .40.
However, everything else being equal, again IMHO, a larger, deeper wound channel is preferable. Therefore, my first gun was a P229 in .40 S&W. At that time, I wanted to "split the difference" between 9mm which I believed to have adequate power (but I prefer to not settle for "adequate") and impressive mag capacity, and .45ACP which had the power I desired but with low mag capacity. The advent of "PC" 10 rounders made firepower issues between 9mm and .40 moot, so I went with .40.
I do realize that, in a real gunfight, if you need to fire more than 3 shots you're in serious trouble anyway. Nonetheless I prefer to have plenty of ammo in the gun AND spare for the unlikely event I face 3-1 or greater odds and I can't run away. I have since switched to a P245 in .45 ACP, because...
1. Larger, deeper wound channels are preferable
2. If faced with 3-1 odds, I stand a better chance of surviving anyway if I can drop each attacker with 2 or 3 shots, rather than >6.
3. The 6+1 capacity of the P245 is acceptacle to me, and I have 2 spare mags "just in case".
Interestingly enough, I have found that I shoot better with the .45 than I did with the .40! In summary- as you train, so shall you fight. Pick a firearm you can handle and are comfortable with, as these 2 factors are IMHO most conducive to proper shot placement. Just remember, if eveything else is equal, deeper wounds mean more reliable stops. The "which caliber is best" debate will probably never end. Trust your judgement.
------------------
Lady Justice has been raped, truth assassin;
Rolls of red tape seal your lips, now you're done in;
Their money tips her scales again, make your deal;
Just what is truth? I cannot tell, cannot feel.
The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the things you say
I can't believe, I can't believe the price we pay- nothing can save us
Justice is lost, Justice is raped, Justice is gone
Pulling your strings,Justice is done...
Seeking no truth, winning is all,
Find it so grim, so true, so real....
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
However, everything else being equal, again IMHO, a larger, deeper wound channel is preferable. Therefore, my first gun was a P229 in .40 S&W. At that time, I wanted to "split the difference" between 9mm which I believed to have adequate power (but I prefer to not settle for "adequate") and impressive mag capacity, and .45ACP which had the power I desired but with low mag capacity. The advent of "PC" 10 rounders made firepower issues between 9mm and .40 moot, so I went with .40.
I do realize that, in a real gunfight, if you need to fire more than 3 shots you're in serious trouble anyway. Nonetheless I prefer to have plenty of ammo in the gun AND spare for the unlikely event I face 3-1 or greater odds and I can't run away. I have since switched to a P245 in .45 ACP, because...
1. Larger, deeper wound channels are preferable
2. If faced with 3-1 odds, I stand a better chance of surviving anyway if I can drop each attacker with 2 or 3 shots, rather than >6.
3. The 6+1 capacity of the P245 is acceptacle to me, and I have 2 spare mags "just in case".
Interestingly enough, I have found that I shoot better with the .45 than I did with the .40! In summary- as you train, so shall you fight. Pick a firearm you can handle and are comfortable with, as these 2 factors are IMHO most conducive to proper shot placement. Just remember, if eveything else is equal, deeper wounds mean more reliable stops. The "which caliber is best" debate will probably never end. Trust your judgement.
------------------
Lady Justice has been raped, truth assassin;
Rolls of red tape seal your lips, now you're done in;
Their money tips her scales again, make your deal;
Just what is truth? I cannot tell, cannot feel.
The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the things you say
I can't believe, I can't believe the price we pay- nothing can save us
Justice is lost, Justice is raped, Justice is gone
Pulling your strings,Justice is done...
Seeking no truth, winning is all,
Find it so grim, so true, so real....
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
Among my reasons for owning a hand gun here in LA CA is that I live in LA CA. I'd own one if I lived in the sticks too, but here I'm much more aware of the need for protection. I lived through the Rodney King riots in 92 and the earthquake two years later. And then there's the regular "idiot/s with a gun" TV dramas. Nothing feels more terrifying than being surrounded by countless thousands of less than optimally brained people, many of whom think nothing of taking whatever they wish from you - including your life - especially during a time of mass panic and confusion. I'm still stunned that LA resident Sharon Stone turned in her guns!
My gun of choice is the long barrel, 15 round mag, 9mm Taurus PT92 (Beretta P92). My thinking is this - accuracy and capacity rule. It so happens I'm a natural shot. First time out the block with an M-16 at age 18 I scored expert. First time shooting a 9mm pistol at an indoor range test I scored on par with the average cop who practices every week. My score has since increased with practice. I'm also good at long distance shots and firing while moving. No beer gut, good reflexes, steady nerves, high panic threshold, athletic genes, plus clear vision also help.
I'm confident that in a life or death situation, I'll outshoot most "desperate/crazed" urban foes I'd likely come in contact with. I also trust my accurate long distance shooting coupled with high capacity can outshoot anyone with a larger calibre gun. Adding to the mix is that I believe anyone with a large calibre gun - who also knows how to shoot it - I'm not likely to fear as an enemy.
My gun of choice is the long barrel, 15 round mag, 9mm Taurus PT92 (Beretta P92). My thinking is this - accuracy and capacity rule. It so happens I'm a natural shot. First time out the block with an M-16 at age 18 I scored expert. First time shooting a 9mm pistol at an indoor range test I scored on par with the average cop who practices every week. My score has since increased with practice. I'm also good at long distance shots and firing while moving. No beer gut, good reflexes, steady nerves, high panic threshold, athletic genes, plus clear vision also help.
I'm confident that in a life or death situation, I'll outshoot most "desperate/crazed" urban foes I'd likely come in contact with. I also trust my accurate long distance shooting coupled with high capacity can outshoot anyone with a larger calibre gun. Adding to the mix is that I believe anyone with a large calibre gun - who also knows how to shoot it - I'm not likely to fear as an enemy.
thequickad
New member
What does your comments has to do with the 9mm vs 40SW debate?
I think this thread is getting sidetracked and should be ended.
I think this thread is getting sidetracked and should be ended.
Chuck Ames
New member
I used 115gr. +p+ ammo from Cor-Bon for a couple of years because of crap I read in the mainstream gun rags. I urge anyone shooting anything similar to check out www.firearmstactical.com. They have a great wound ballistics page with real information and not junk science.
The most important factor in putting someone down is shot placement. Next the bullet must penetrate from 12-18 inches according to the International Wound Ballistics Association specifications. After that, the bigger the hole the quicker Hemmorraghic shock will set in, which is the only reliable Street Stopper (outside of a Central Nervous System hit).
I have a copy of a law enforcement training video where a suspect was shot 5 times with a .40 over a period of time and managed to jump out of the truck and run around before he went down. As far as I know, none of the bullets penetrated deeply enough to penetrate the vitals. There may have also been some peripheral hits in there. The agency in question changed it's ammunition, because of the underpenetration issues. If anyone has been to Calibrepress' street survival seminar, you've seen the footage of the guy throwing car parts out the back of the truck, while being shot I might add.
As far as controllability goes, my small wife hated my 9mm H&K USP, but loved the range owners Glock in .40, so in my mind, it's really not an issue.
My current ammo choice in 9mm is 147 grain JHP, I don't shoot .40, and I plan to up-gun to the .45 soon.
Remeber shot placement, penetration, and lastly size.
The most important factor in putting someone down is shot placement. Next the bullet must penetrate from 12-18 inches according to the International Wound Ballistics Association specifications. After that, the bigger the hole the quicker Hemmorraghic shock will set in, which is the only reliable Street Stopper (outside of a Central Nervous System hit).
I have a copy of a law enforcement training video where a suspect was shot 5 times with a .40 over a period of time and managed to jump out of the truck and run around before he went down. As far as I know, none of the bullets penetrated deeply enough to penetrate the vitals. There may have also been some peripheral hits in there. The agency in question changed it's ammunition, because of the underpenetration issues. If anyone has been to Calibrepress' street survival seminar, you've seen the footage of the guy throwing car parts out the back of the truck, while being shot I might add.
As far as controllability goes, my small wife hated my 9mm H&K USP, but loved the range owners Glock in .40, so in my mind, it's really not an issue.
My current ammo choice in 9mm is 147 grain JHP, I don't shoot .40, and I plan to up-gun to the .45 soon.
Remeber shot placement, penetration, and lastly size.
I work at a county hospital which houses the county morgue. Every week they're are dead people brought hit having been shot with .22s,.25s,.32acp,and lots of .380.
Having said that, for whatever its worth, I too feel the 9 verse .40 debate is a little overblown.
If you feel undergunned with a 9mm-go to a 45 auto. The 45 ammo is plentiful, easier on the gun and shooter.
If you don't feel undergunned with the 9mm, use plus p ammo and you will definitely be well armed for defense.
Having said that, for whatever its worth, I too feel the 9 verse .40 debate is a little overblown.
If you feel undergunned with a 9mm-go to a 45 auto. The 45 ammo is plentiful, easier on the gun and shooter.
If you don't feel undergunned with the 9mm, use plus p ammo and you will definitely be well armed for defense.
Peter M. Eick
New member
If you don't mind a different tack on the debate, I went for the 40 because of a very simple reason.
Full power blue-dot or power pistol reloads are easy to get into a 40 case, but the 9mm they are nearly full so we are at a compressed charge for reloading. Also the brass case volume for the 40 is more uniform then the 9mm.
For me then, the logistics (read ease) of reloading dictated which round I would shoot, and that is 40.
ps: I would rather shoot my 10mm over each any day though.
Full power blue-dot or power pistol reloads are easy to get into a 40 case, but the 9mm they are nearly full so we are at a compressed charge for reloading. Also the brass case volume for the 40 is more uniform then the 9mm.
For me then, the logistics (read ease) of reloading dictated which round I would shoot, and that is 40.
ps: I would rather shoot my 10mm over each any day though.
"Good grief, why can’t physics, experience and common sense solve the 9mm vs. the .40 Smith debate?"
Very simply because 9mm people insist on consoling themselves that there little bullet is just as good as a big bullet. As if the answer were not obvious, they want their cake and eat it too: low recoil, hi capacity AND all the damage to the target. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have the best of all worlds, but life does not work that way.
Everything is a trade off and a compromise and nothing comes for free. If you want more hitting power, you are going to have to deal with the recoil and larger, more powerful cartridge.
All I know is that when I pull a gun to save my life (I have been there), I want the biggest, baddest mo-fo gun possible, not the easiest/cheapest one to shoot. For me it is a matter of having the best I can have, the one that makes the biggest holes (because I shoot just as well with all the calibers discussed) when my arss is on the line.
You hear plenty of stories about people shooting someone dozens of times with a 9mm and they don't go down....how often do you hear that story about the .45?
The 9mm fans spend all their time defending their round because it needs defense...it has reason to make people wary of it due to it's many failures in real shootings. You don't hear .45 fans defending their round because there is nothing to defend: it just works, and always has.
The point is, If the size of the hole does not matter, then we should all be carry .22 Magnums, which have plenty of penetration, high capacity and low recoil. The fact is, the size DOES matter, and that is why people pick the 9mm over the .32 or .22. So, why not take it a step further, if one can handle the gun, and carrying an even bigger gun? (.40 caliber in this case)
.40's are the best compromise for people with a variety of hand sizes. They fit in a smaller gun and more people can get their hand around the double stack .40's. If it weren't for the size of the gun, I think more .40 fans would just go .45.
"Let's not forget most of the SWAT uses MP5 chambered for 9mm."
First of all, the longer barrel gives it more the ballistics of a .357 magnum than a 9mm pistol. Also, in three or four shot bursts, the 9mm out of that barrel does quite a number. Kinda like 00 buckshot with hollowpoints.
Back to the topic:
Bigger holes mean quicker bleeding no matter where your placement is. Placement being equal, the larger hole wins. In worst case scenarios, even the .45 hardball makes a bigger hole than many 9mm hollowpoints in the real world (because hollowpoints do not perform in real life like they do in gelatin!!!).
If you can't place well with anything larger than a 9mm then stick with it or practice more.
I shoot a bigger caliber AND I hit what I aim at very quickly. How come so many have to shoot a 9mm just so they can hit something?
As you can see, this argument will not be settled here
(Remember everyone, we are on the same side and just debating a silly issue, so let's keep this cool and not get personal)
Ps- "I'm still stunned that LA resident Sharon Stone turned in her guns!"
She has armed body guards, and she is the kind of idiot that could not handle a gun properly anyway. So, it was an easy decision for her. For us mere mortals who live in real neighborhoods without personl bodyguards....well, our options are limited.
Very simply because 9mm people insist on consoling themselves that there little bullet is just as good as a big bullet. As if the answer were not obvious, they want their cake and eat it too: low recoil, hi capacity AND all the damage to the target. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have the best of all worlds, but life does not work that way.
Everything is a trade off and a compromise and nothing comes for free. If you want more hitting power, you are going to have to deal with the recoil and larger, more powerful cartridge.
All I know is that when I pull a gun to save my life (I have been there), I want the biggest, baddest mo-fo gun possible, not the easiest/cheapest one to shoot. For me it is a matter of having the best I can have, the one that makes the biggest holes (because I shoot just as well with all the calibers discussed) when my arss is on the line.
You hear plenty of stories about people shooting someone dozens of times with a 9mm and they don't go down....how often do you hear that story about the .45?
The 9mm fans spend all their time defending their round because it needs defense...it has reason to make people wary of it due to it's many failures in real shootings. You don't hear .45 fans defending their round because there is nothing to defend: it just works, and always has.
The point is, If the size of the hole does not matter, then we should all be carry .22 Magnums, which have plenty of penetration, high capacity and low recoil. The fact is, the size DOES matter, and that is why people pick the 9mm over the .32 or .22. So, why not take it a step further, if one can handle the gun, and carrying an even bigger gun? (.40 caliber in this case)
.40's are the best compromise for people with a variety of hand sizes. They fit in a smaller gun and more people can get their hand around the double stack .40's. If it weren't for the size of the gun, I think more .40 fans would just go .45.
"Let's not forget most of the SWAT uses MP5 chambered for 9mm."
First of all, the longer barrel gives it more the ballistics of a .357 magnum than a 9mm pistol. Also, in three or four shot bursts, the 9mm out of that barrel does quite a number. Kinda like 00 buckshot with hollowpoints.
Back to the topic:
Bigger holes mean quicker bleeding no matter where your placement is. Placement being equal, the larger hole wins. In worst case scenarios, even the .45 hardball makes a bigger hole than many 9mm hollowpoints in the real world (because hollowpoints do not perform in real life like they do in gelatin!!!).
If you can't place well with anything larger than a 9mm then stick with it or practice more.
I shoot a bigger caliber AND I hit what I aim at very quickly. How come so many have to shoot a 9mm just so they can hit something?
As you can see, this argument will not be settled here
(Remember everyone, we are on the same side and just debating a silly issue, so let's keep this cool and not get personal)
Ps- "I'm still stunned that LA resident Sharon Stone turned in her guns!"
She has armed body guards, and she is the kind of idiot that could not handle a gun properly anyway. So, it was an easy decision for her. For us mere mortals who live in real neighborhoods without personl bodyguards....well, our options are limited.
I'll stick my two in here. I've said before that I prefer the 9mm to the .40 S&W because I think the 9 is generally more accurate. I'll go along with the shot placement folks. If ya put it where it counts, the job gets done. Bigger bullets allow for a bigger margin of error. That's one of the reasons I now carry a .45. I'll take all the help I can get.
Walt Welch
New member
Yep, this debate has been going on long enough. I think that with 90 years having come and gone, it should be settled by now.
Oh, you say that the .40 S&W is a new round? Well, podner, take a look at a round called the 38-40; the 43rd edition of the Lyman Handbook shows it moves a 180 gr. bullet along at 1100 fps., and a 200 gr. bullet at 1050 fps. A .401 dia. bullet. Georg Luger started all this controversy in 1908 when he introduced the cut off 7.65mm Luger, and called it the 9mm. So, this controversy has been around a lot longer than most of you think. Don't expect it to be settled soon.
Walt
Oh, you say that the .40 S&W is a new round? Well, podner, take a look at a round called the 38-40; the 43rd edition of the Lyman Handbook shows it moves a 180 gr. bullet along at 1100 fps., and a 200 gr. bullet at 1050 fps. A .401 dia. bullet. Georg Luger started all this controversy in 1908 when he introduced the cut off 7.65mm Luger, and called it the 9mm. So, this controversy has been around a lot longer than most of you think. Don't expect it to be settled soon.
Walt
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Greetings all! Like others have stated, this debate and others like it will never end. I also agree with others who have stated that placement is the prime determinant in your shot's "stopping power." Perhaps advice given by folks more knowledgable than me is appropriate here: Pick the largest gun that you can shoot accurately. My own version of this is that if you like a certain 9mm handgun best of all and shoot it better than another, pick it. If that "best gun for you" turns out to be a .40 or a .45, then use it.
I've seen what the 9mm with both ball and high performance loads do against humans and there is a big difference. Likewise, I've seen the effects of the .45acp and it, too, "did the job" very well. Yet, I've seen all of the above fail miserably and you guessed the reason why: shot placement. Best to all.
I've seen what the 9mm with both ball and high performance loads do against humans and there is a big difference. Likewise, I've seen the effects of the .45acp and it, too, "did the job" very well. Yet, I've seen all of the above fail miserably and you guessed the reason why: shot placement. Best to all.
It's tempting to make an analogy here about size vs. the ability to use something well 'nuff said!
A person can kill with a .22 with good shot placement. A .50 DE is useless if you can't hit the target. That applies to all calibers.
IF IT ISN'T GERMAN, IT'S DRECK!
(Which is why I shoot HKs
)
(inspired by Jedi Oomondo)
jth
'nuff said!A person can kill with a .22 with good shot placement. A .50 DE is useless if you can't hit the target. That applies to all calibers.
IF IT ISN'T GERMAN, IT'S DRECK!
(Which is why I shoot HKs
)(inspired by Jedi Oomondo)
jth
scott90501
Moderator
The easiest question all month - 357 Sig !
With a caliber that has the characteristics of the 357 Magnum for an autopistol, it's a DEFINITE WINNER !
The US Secret Service, after testing, has switched to it ! Texas DPS and Louisiana State Patrol just switched also !
It's the up and coming caliber of preference !
------------------
Lose that nickel plated sissy pistol, get yourself a GLOCK !
With a caliber that has the characteristics of the 357 Magnum for an autopistol, it's a DEFINITE WINNER !
The US Secret Service, after testing, has switched to it ! Texas DPS and Louisiana State Patrol just switched also !
It's the up and coming caliber of preference !
------------------
Lose that nickel plated sissy pistol, get yourself a GLOCK !
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