Somebody please explain "cocks on close" to me

The only Cock on Close Rifle I have is my 1896 Swedish Mauser. When I first got the rifle, COC annoyed me so much that I almost ordered a COO kit for it. I procrastinated about ordering it, eventually got used to COC, and now I actually like COC quite well.
 
same here with my first enfield, it felt wonky at first, now I love COC and wouldn't trade my 1896 mauser, m1917, enfield or arisakas for anything.
 
My 1903-A3 cocks on opening.

My Arisaka and my No 1 Mk III are cock on closing.

I've come to prefer cock on closing, especially in rapid aimed fire.

The sight picture is less disrupted on cock on closing because you don't have nearly as much torquing force when lifting the bolt handle.
 
Mike says he's come to prefer cock on closing, especially in rapid aimed fire. His sight picture is less disrupted on cock on closing because he doesn't have nearly as much torquing force when lifting the bolt handle.

In contrast, bolt gunners shooting rapid fire matches putting 10 shots down range in 60 seconds inside 3 inches at 200 yards think differently. Starting with 5 rounds in the magazine while he's standing up, the clock starts when the targets go up, he sits down, gets into position and starts shooting. Having to reload with a striper clip half way through the string, he'll shoot once every 4 seconds. It takes less than 1 second from the round firing to manually eject the case and chamber another round. The extra torque required to open the 'COO' bolt is meaningless because recoil's moved him out of position a tiny bit so that's done on his way back into position. The lesser torque needed to close the bolt on the next round easily with light finger touch and hand position more quickly moved to the grip and trigger moves the rifle much less as he's repositioning himself getting sight alignment and picture for the next shot.
 
"In contrast, bolt gunners shooting rapid fire matches..."

Oh?

And how many of them have actually USED a cock-on-closing action?

I know in the years I was going to Camp Perry, and in talking to my many friends who are/have been competitive rifle shooters, and the question came up, responses ranged from:

"I fired 1917 once... don't really remember much about it..."

"I've heard about it..."

To my particular favorite...

"What's cock on closing?"

I think in all the conversations I've had with rifle shooters over the years, the number who could be said to actually be knowledgeable with the cock on closing action is fewer than 5.

Just because a certain set of individuals uses one system doesn't mean that they either know about other systems, or that their use can be seen as a confirmation that their system is superior. As often as not, it's simply a sign of not knowing about anything else.

I will say, however, that if your hypothetical shooter has a proper grip on his firearm, the thrust of the bolt moving forward, in a straight line, is more than counteracted by his offhand hold and sling.

Of course, if he's not holding his rifle correctly, all bets are off...

And, I'm confused, Bart, are you saying that someone using cock on closing can't put 10 shots down range in 60 seconds inside 3 inches at 200 yards?

That would be odd, because the British standard for a well-trained rifleman was a minimum of 20 shots down range in 60 seconds for a similar grouping.

Then there was the British mad minute, another form of fun entirely. I wonder how your guys would do on that?
 
My remarks are based on what's easiest to do in rapid fire, not what can be done. I think there's a difference. And modern day igonrance of cock on closing by competitors is not an issue. Very few them know where the MOA standard in competition is 1 inch per hundred yards of range came from, either.

Regarding how many have used COC bolt actions in rapid fire matches, a few prior to the late 1930's; the exact count's not known to anyone I know of. But the popularity of COC actions in NRA high power competition dwindled from very few to virtually zero after 1938, according to Col. Walt Walsh who won the Nationals back then in a conversation I had with him in 1997 about Springfield M1903's vs Enfield M1917's.

I'm not aware of any British standard for a well-trained rifleman was a minimum of 20 shots down range in 60 seconds for a similar grouping; point me to it, please. Especially when, as I remember, the SMLE's accuracy spec was 7 shots inside 5 inches at 300 yards. The odds of anyone shooting any rifle 20 times inside 3 inches in 60 seconds with any bolt action rifle, is very high.
 
Bart. A lot of bolt gunners from the British Commonwealth, especially the ones who participate in the mad minute matches, will disagree with your bolt gunners.

Once again it is rather pointless argument, like the childish "my dad beats your dad". People like what they like, and there is no model answer. I like both, in different ways.

-TL
 
Where can I find the rules for the British 'mad minute match' stating rifles, target dimensions and course of fire details? Plus the British standard for a well-trained rifleman was a minimum of 20 shots down range in 60 seconds conditions and standards.

Sounds interesting to me, but I gotta see the facts and details to make any reasonable comparison to high power matches in the USA.
 
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@mike irwin: I half expected you to mention, as a passing observation, that savage 99's also cock on closing. Interesting thread.

I never handled the discontinued ruger 96/44. Does anyone know if they cocked on closing or on opening?
 
This kind of got me to thinking. Would some of these newer designed short throw actions actually be easier to work cock on close than they are cock on open? With a two lug action, I think cock on close is probably preferable. How would some of the multi lug actions work COC instead of COO?
 
Where can I find the rules for the British 'mad minute match' stating rifles, target dimensions and course of fire details?
So glad you asked here's the dope.:D

Many assume the mad minute is just flinging 10-rounds towards the general direction of the berm quickly. That is wrong, the drill lasts an entire minute & requires reasonable accuracy as well.:eek:

In 1905 the man who was to save the small British Expeditionary Force (B.E.F.) from annihilation in 1914 was posted as Chief Instructor to the Musketry School at Hythe in Kent. He was Lt. Col. N.R. McMahon of the Royal Fusiliers. Although an ardent believer and foremost expert on the machine gun, McMahon knew something had to be done about the lack of this type of weapon. His answer was simple but would take time. He would take the ordinary British Soldier with his Lee Enfield Rifle and teach him to use it to such a high standard that no army had ever, or would ever, again reach. So fanatical was this man about implementing his ideas, that he became known as the "Musketry Maniac". His goal was that each man should become a "Human Machine Gun" . The final part of the soldier's qualification test was the crucial element in the new training system. This was to be known as the "Mad Minute". The soldier must, in one minute, be able to fire fifteen rounds into the inner scoring ring (14" in diameter) of a standard military four-foot target at 300 yards.

The Lee Enfield mad minute.
“Mad minute” was a term used by British riflemen during training to describe scoring 15 hits onto a target at 300 yd (274.3 m) within one minute using a bolt-action rifle. It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 30+ shots, while the record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall was 38 hits.
[ Ian V. Hogg, The Encyclopedia of Weaponry, Sterling Publishing, New York 2006.]

The magazine and repeating bolt action of the Lee Enfield, adopted at the very dawn of the 20th century, allowed for an unprecedented volume of fire. The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and large magazine capacity enabled a well-trained rifleman to perform the "Mad minute" firing 20 to 30 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The Lee-Enfield Resource website has a video of 15 rounds in one minute, aimed, but no reference to the methodology & techniques used originally. It was not uncommon during the First World War for British Empire servicemen to beat this record! On average a rifleman could fire twenty-five shots, and some could even make it to forty shots.”

Supposedly there is a formal “Mad Minute reenactment” annually in the U.K.
During the 'mad minute' British riflemen were required to hit a target 300 meters away, with at least fifteen rounds fired in sixty seconds; one round every four seconds. A modern-day, semi-trained guerrilla soldier with a semi, or fully automatic assault rifle can easily top that, although not with the same accuracy, but the Lee-Enfield was a bolt action rifle, requiring the soldier to rotate and cycle a bolt with his hand between each shot. The rifle fired the powerful .303 British cartridge, which had a hefty recoil, and the magazine could only hold ten rounds, requiring several reloads during the minute.
Reloading a bolt-action rifle of the time involved sliding bullets from 5-round Chargers (stripper clips) down into the magazine from above. The Lee Enfield required two five-round clips, and debate still rages as to the best method for ensuring high-speed fire; polishing the clip guides, flipping the bolt with the thumb and forefinger of the right hand whilst firing with the middle finger, or even reloading with the Lee-Enfield's detachable magazine (not usually recommended).

The mad minute turned out to be extremely useful in the early stages of the Great War, when the lightly-armed British Expeditionary Force was on the defensive; the BEF's soldiers could put up a tremendous, murderous volume of fire against advancing close-formation German troops, many of whom reported that they were facing machine-guns. The upper limits of aimed fire in the mad minute were 30-35 rounds per minute, slightly more than one round every two seconds, including the time taken to cycle the bolt and stuff several clips into the rifle.
Here is probably the best-documented methodology available, but most of the documents & records from the period are destroyed so even this is speculative! Remember this was a "set up" World Record attempt, so there was a lot of manipulation & setup involved!

Targets
On military ranges, where most full-bore shoots take place, targets are chosen according to the distance and course of fire. The most commonly used target is known as a Figure 11. This is 44 inches high by 17 inches wide and depicts a charging infantry soldier. A good second choice would be the regulation 4' square "tin hat" target, with its Bull, Inner, Magpie, Outer setup much like a modern bullseye target with a piece of typing paper covering the bottom half of the bullseye.

The drill happened during WW1 so we can assume it was done from a trench standing with the rifle supported on a sandbag. A bench & bag is a reasonable substitute if you don't feel like digging a bloody great hole in the range firing line!

Load up at least 8 chargers with 5 rounds each!
The rifle is slung & (this is vital) the butt-stock never leaves the shoulder. Resist the temptation to "look at the bullets going in". Use tension from the sling with the left forearm wrapped in it to keep the butt-plate in position firmly pressed into the shoulder pocket throughout. Try to keep the muzzle pointed at the bullseye as well, this is why the positioning setup is so important, the rifle should recover from recoil almost naturally if you do it right.

The bolt operation is done by butting the bolt knob in the bent right hand's "trigger finger" & held in place by the right thumb. That finger/thumb never leave the bolt handle, except when grabbing another loaded charger from the right front of the shooter's position. The second finger is used for the trigger operation exclusively. If you get it set up just right (which needs practice) you'll find as the bolt is "whipped sharply" into the closed & locked position the second finger presses the trigger without you doing anything except keeping it rigid. This takes a bit of practice but is almost instinctive when you get it down pat.

Now you're set up here's the actual firing drill.
Get prone or benched slug & bagged & set up position so you naturally point at the life sized silhouette target at 300yds. (You can use a reduced size one at 100yds if you like.)
LOAD 11 rounds. (2 chargers & one "up the spout").
Fire 6 rounds as quickly as you can re-acquire the target. Time (1 Minute) starts here at the sound of the first shot.
Breathe!
You have fired 6 rounds & have 5 rounds left, DO NOT close the bolt on round #7, just whack in a charger with 5 more rounds & snap the bolt forward to eject the empty clip.
You have 10 rounds loaded.
Fire 6 rounds as quickly as you can re-acquire the target.
Breathe.
Keep repeating the "fire 6, charge 5" until either the minute is up or you run out of bullets after 38 rounds fired! Once you’ve fully emptied the magazine (assuming you’re still going) just dump in 5-round chargers & fire them off to complete the one minute time frame.

If you fire 38 congratulations you beat Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall’s World Record! Most can fire 15~20 aimed shots in a minute with just a day or two's practice, but the world record set in 1914 was 38!

In reality when it cocked was less important than the skills of the marksman & the unique relationship between the trigger & the bolt handle of the Lee Enfield rifle.
 
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That 17" x 44" target at 300 is substantially larger than the NRA match rifle targets 7" ten and 3" X rings for rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards.

I forgot to mention the shorter lock times COC actions have compared to COO ones. A significant aid to accurate and precise shooting with hand held rifles.
 
"Regarding how many have used COC bolt actions in rapid fire matches"

Not to mention every Brit who arrived in the United States for the various international high power competitions up through the 1960s...

As well as their Canadian counterparts....

"Where can I find the rules for the British 'mad minute match' stating rifles, target dimensions and course of fire details?"

The Internet?


"My remarks are based on what's easiest to do in rapid fire, not what can be done."

Sorry, Bart, your comments seem to be based on what you THINK is easiest to do based solely on your experience, or lack thereof.
 
The mad minute target was one of many targets used by the British at varying distances. Not the only one. As I noted, their specs for 200 yards were similar to what high power bolt shooters fire today.

And, as I've repeated noted, my growing preference for the cock on closing action is based on experience with both types of actions, not just one.
 
I'm in the minority as I consider the COC superior in staying more on target when working the bolt.

It's easier controlling the forward thrust, as opposed to the side torquing.
+1.

My Mauser 93 is the fastest, slickest bolt rifle I've shot.
 
Interesting. The 1896 Mausers made for the Swedes were still cock-on-close. I guess they requested that feature given that cock-on-open must have been an option.

It wasn't just the Swedes; ALL the Mauser smokeless small bore rifles, starting with the 1889 Belgian, were cock on closing. The 1898 was the first of that genre to feature cock on opening.
 
Regarding speed matches with Lee-Enfields, it is often overlooked that the Lee-Enfield action is inherently faster than practically all other bolt guns.

It's bolt only swings through an arc of 54° as opposed to 90° for virtually all others. (There are one or two commercial bolt gun that have less than 90° swings, but they're not common, and are not really germane to this discussion.)
 
My comments are based on what a lot of people know and have shared with me.

What international rapid fire bolt action high power rifle matches were held in the USA up through the 1960's? What was/is their governing body; IOC, ISSF, PAG, CISM for example? The only ones I know of were all slow fire matches.
 
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Easy way to settle this.:rolleyes:
All we need is a couple of impartial witnesses, a video camera, & a stopwatch.

Got a minute, a 300 yd range & 38 .30 cal bullets?
We can substitute some life sized silhouettes for the old #11's if you like.:eek:
 
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Got a minute, a 300 yd range & 38 .30 cal bullets?

Which .30 cal bullets? (I'd prefer .284" bullets ..... I'm on Team CoC ....... You can call us "Cock on Closing Killers!" Who's making T-shirts?!?!?!) And would we not need more than 38?

Lets give 40 per member, of whatever stripe, to Team CoO, and Team CoCK ....



:) :) ;)
 
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