Some M1 Garand questions....

J

jaughtman

New member
To start off with, I have only owned civilian hunting rifles - Marlin336, Winchester 70's, Winchester 94, etc. However, I am a huge history buff and would love to buy an old Garand and possible get involved in the milsurp matches. All I know is "M1 Garand" - do not know which manufactorers are more desirable, better quality, etc. I went by the CMP facility here in Alabama a few weeks ago and was BEWILDERED by the range in prices and manufactorers/levels. Can you guys give me the "quick and dirty" ranking of the manufactorers? They had Winchester, Springfield, H&R, and others. Field grad, rack grade, service grade, etc. All things being equal, the H&R's seemed to be the "better buy" for a shooter as the higher grades were about the same price as the Winchester Field grades - but that was explained to me as due to the fact that the H&R's are from the 1950's and therefore not as historically (WWII) desireable. I don't want to read a book - just a couple of pointers in what to look for if I want a shooter - not an "investment"?

J
 
I suggest you go to ODCMP.com and join the forums or just snoop around there to learn about the M1's. The H&R rifles weren't produced until after WWII, so if you order one you are guaranteed a post-war rifle. Winchesters wer only made during the war and command a bit of premium jsut for the name. IHC's also carry a premium for their scarcity.

The service grade rifles should all shoot about the same and have better wood. The current CMP offerings may have replacement stocks.

Rack grades have worse looking wood and more muzzle and throat erosion. Sometimes you get lucky and find good wood or a good barrel on a rack grade, but you aren't likely to find both.
 
the H&R Service grade would be what you are after
they are very good rifles
the other manufacturers are more collectable, as you stated,and there for
cost more

throat wear-- a new barrel will measure 0 to 1.5,
3 is about half ( still acurate and in very usable condition )
5 or more and it is worn out ( will still shoot but not
very accurate )( rifle needs a new barrel )

while you are there get a good sling and plenty of the surplus ammo

for the matches you will also need a SLED ( single round loading device )
and 2 or 3 two round clips
 
The best buy out there is the Field Grade $495 Garands. Yeah the stocks look used because they were used. I love looking at all the nicks, scraps, etc and wondering how they got there, what was the soldier doing when they got there.

Don't get hung up on the Throat & Muzzle Erosion. You can be assured that each and every rifle coming out of CMP has been gone over by CMP Armors and will be safe to shoot and functional.

I got my M1 in the early 80s when CMP was DCM. It's a 1941 Springfield. Since I got it I've shot the heck out of it, in High Power and 1000 yard service rifle matches. I took it to my sniper schools and shot it until the sap boiled out of the hand guards. My muzzle measures 1.75, the throat 8. This is a recent target I shot, prone, sling, unsupported (no rest). As you can see, if I'd come one right and one up, I'd cleaned the 100 yard reduced target used in CMP-GSM Garand matches. If your gun shoots 3 MOA, (which is not unreasonable for a Field grade M1, you should be able to clean the NRA 600 yard target. Its the shooter not the gun.

M1%20Target.JPG
 
You have a HUGE advantage over most people, you live close to the CMP! Go on a Wednesday, which I believe is the first day they open after restocking, grab one of the guys that work there, and tell him what you want to do with your rifle. They are EXTREMELY helpful! I own 4 that I purchased in-person from the South Store, and my best shooter is a field grade H&R. I also assembled a Springfield 1943 barreled action, and a Woodless 1943 Winchester that shoots really good.

There is very little difference in quality between the 4 domestic makers of Garands, but realize most all have been rebuilt, so in theory it doesn't matter which maker had the best reputation anymore. My Winchester has mostly springfield parts, and my springfield has a couple Beretta parts because I got lazy trying to find correct period parts. I've only fired the Springfield once, but it functioned flawlessly. My field grade and my correct grade H&R's are both all correct parts, but the field grade got graded "field" because of the wood and finish condition. It took me over and hour of sniffing around the racks to find it, but it was worth it.

Its worth learning about throat and muzzle erosion a little, but the employees at the CMP store will help you out and loan you a gauge if you want it. The CMP message board is a good place to learn.

Good luck, and enjoy the CMP store, i'm so jealous!

GregM
 
Throat and muzzle erosion....

what do the numbers mean? 1, 3, 5 - what measurements are those numbers? And, where does "rack" grade fall in? I do not see it listed in the official CMP catalog.

J
 
The "other" aka last maker of the Garand was IHC aka International Harvester Corp. Per Bruce Canfields garand book, they had a lot of manufacturing issues because the firm, IHC, was not a gun maker until they were offered a M1 garand contract. They are also a 50s era garand maker like H&R. I own a H&R and love it. SA and Winchester, IIRC, both made garands long after WWII so a SA itself does not guarantee WWII manufacture. SA hit about 4 million or more before the end of WWII but I think their numbers go over 7 million. I'm fairly sure that Winchester as well made garands after WWII but I'm not positive of that. If you want one to shoot and enjoy, get the best value one you can get. If you want one that will appreciate in value, get the Winchester or at least a WWII era SA.
I however like my H&R alot. Maybe you will get a bunch, 1 for each purpose. They're great rifles between the function, history, design, caliber, etc, I had to have one for the same reasons as you.

Here is mine on bottom:

USvets1.jpg
 
numbers

The throat and muzzle numbers are from armorers gauges that give a reference to the degree of "erosion' on the throat and muzzle. Typically, the lower the number the better.

H&R's are very good rifles and likely missed a generation of recruits. Watch for such desirable features as "NM" stamped operating rods, LMR stamped barrels (a rebarrel made up in Alabama and of very high quality) and as a rule, barrels stamped w/ Korean War or later dates. Don't get hung up on wood, as it can be relatively easily replaced. Watch out for "uncut" op rods as they are not as durable.

Do some reading and study a bit and let the Garand/M1 dope get a bit familiar.
Once at that point, you can commit to a rifle. But by all means, get one!
 
Jaughtman,

The numbers on the throat and erosion just indicate how much wear the barrel shows. picture this: A new barrel is .300, or .30 caliber, if its measured as a 3 at the muzzle, then its bore at the muzzle is now .303, a 5 would be .305, etc.

Does that help you get the general picture of throat and erosion? My example is not exact, but a simplified way of understanding. Generally anything over 6 "I think" was considered no longer servicable by the US military.

My field grade H&R was just under 1 in throat and muzzle. My woodless Winchester was a 3 at both. The rack grades I looked at were mostly 4's and 5's at the muzzle. If the CMP doesn't list rack grades on their website, it probably means they don't have anymore right now.

International Harvester Garands(IHC), are a whole different animal. IHC's will cost a premium because they didn't make many and even less made it back to the US. My only Garand NOT from the CMP is a IHC. It's all original parts, LMR barrel, and never fired by me. Go to gunbroker and look at prices on IHC's and you'll understand why I won't shoot it, I just pet it occasionally and tell it how pretty it is. WWII springfields and Winchesters also get a bit of a premium price, which is why I say go for a post-war Springfield or H&R for a shooter.

GregM
 
Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact number as far as barrel wear before they were supposed to go in for a barrel change. I know the CMP won't sell you one that's a 10, or even a 6 for that matter.

GregM
 
Mine's and H&R service grade from CMP, its very nice and a good shooter.
The winchesters are more collectable because of their name and the IHCs because of their name and lower production numbers, but the H&Rs supposedly have the nicest fit and finish for what thats worth.


Picture016.jpg
 
Thanks!

Facinating stuff. I am taking it all in before taking the plunge but will update with pics and such if/when I pull the trigger....Hahaha. Get it?


J
 
You gents have not just really attractive metal parts, but also the wood.
My first Garand was bought by a friend at Camp Perry during his match last August.

Even though the SA action and barrel etc were built in '55, the condition of the metal components are in such nice condition that even though it has no war experience, the other aspects compensate very well.

With that, the dings in the dark wood are not an issue.

The bore might be a bit better than in some Service Grades. It gleams like the nice chrome-lined bore in my SKS.
My second Garand will also be a S. Grade, and only from the CMP.
 
Service Grade for $630 are the best buy as far as I'm concerned. The Correct Grade (rifle on the right) are the best. One does not need the "best" as a shooter. These are CMP/DMC rifles. From left to right last quarter of 1943 rebuilt after the 2nd world war (1946) middle last quarter of 1944 rebuilt by Dow's Arms Room, as stated 1955 all correct (two months older than me).
 
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I bought from the CMP last year and requested a WWII SA. I recieved very nice example made in March of '44 with a new birch stock, the muzzle guaged 1 and the throat 2.

Mals
 
Actually-THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

The BEST BARRELS ever found on M-1's were made by the Line Material Company of Birmingham, Alabama.

When you are looking at a Garand, throw back the Op Rod and look at the right side of the barrel that you can see with the Op Rod locked to the rear.

There will be a long number there-that is the "Drawing Number" for the barrel, the date of the barrel and the manufacturer.

What you are looking for is a barrel marked "LMR."

LMR barrels were so good that back in the 1950's marksmanship units would go thru armories of Garands and pull out those rifles that had LMR barrels. These were the arms that they "accurized" for match shooting!

Obviously, you are looking for an LMR barrel that is not too worn. You will most likely find LMR barrels on M-1's made by H&R because the Ordnance Department directed the LMR company to supply barrels to H&R. Now, not all H&R Garands have LMR barrels-but many do. Same with International Harvester.

My son got a Springfield made Garand with an LMR barrel. It was most likely a replacement barrel that was put on in the 1950's.

GOOD LUCK!
 
If you can make it to one of the CMP stores as I did (two hours from the South store) and use the gauges and go over the rifles very carefully you should be able to find a field grade that will serve your needs. Buy the rifle for the metal, not the wood. Most stocks can be refinished with great results and at worst can be replaced with a CMP/Boyds stock for very little. My preference is the Springfields. To me Winchesters are more for Winchester collectors. They can be a bit less refined.

My field grade Springfield, measuring well under 2 (closer to 1 to 1.5) with both gauges, is a tackdriver. Heck, I had a rack grade that measured out almost as well. You just have to look and learn to overlook the wood in favor of the steel.

If ordering online I would only consider the service grade and above.

Shooting the M1 Garand is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

BTW, as a very smart insurance policy as to ammo, be sure to acquire the Schuster adjustable gas plug so that you can shoot commercial 30-06 should the supply of surplus ever dry up as it's always threatening to do. It's about the smartest $36 that you can spend to insure that you can enjoy shooting your Garand for many years to come.
 
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