I tend to speculate...that heart beat shake will transmit more vibrations to a thin barrel, compared to a heavy barreled rifle. Also...thin barreled rifles tend to be whippy like, while swinging on a running animal. A heavy barrel will stabilize the swing better on running shots, including any minor physical deviation moves from the shooter, that might prevent a perfect shot.
Some insight to why a light barrel and heavy barrel can be equally accurate.
- Thread starter Mystro
- Start date
reynolds357
New member
My heart beat does not transfer into my rifle. The only part of my body touching the rifle is my finger and I tap the trigger with it. It is only touching for a brief fraction of a second before the primer lights.The only part of my body that touches the bench is a small spot junst under my elbow. My cheek very lightly touches the stock, but nowhere near enough pressure to transfer a heartbeat to the rifle.
Reynolds, long and skinny Palma barrels shoot 30 caliber bullets just as accurate at long range as long and thick benchrest ones. I've proved that by putting 20 consecutive shots into sub 1/2 MOA at long range with my .308 Win. Palma barrel; no benchrest rig's ever done that. Others testing Palma rifles for long range accuracy see them shooting just as accurate as benchrest rifles do; the best at about 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards.
Regarding short range benchrest, the really, thick, stiff heavy barrels in unlimited rail guns have not shot as many record scores as the slightly thinner and stiffer ones used in the conventional weight class ones.
Erno86, the pulse beat rate's the same for any barrel shot. And your comparison on swining a rifle aiming at a running target only compare which barrel type is easier to shoot at moving targets with.
One would make a better comparison to some tests ran back in the 1960's comparing a .22 caliber rimfire free pistol's 12" skinny barrel shooting just as accurate as a 26" long thick barrel in a .22 caliber rimfire free rifle.
Regarding short range benchrest, the really, thick, stiff heavy barrels in unlimited rail guns have not shot as many record scores as the slightly thinner and stiffer ones used in the conventional weight class ones.
Erno86, the pulse beat rate's the same for any barrel shot. And your comparison on swining a rifle aiming at a running target only compare which barrel type is easier to shoot at moving targets with.
One would make a better comparison to some tests ran back in the 1960's comparing a .22 caliber rimfire free pistol's 12" skinny barrel shooting just as accurate as a 26" long thick barrel in a .22 caliber rimfire free rifle.
reynolds357
New member
1.473 is the best group I know of and it was shot with a 17 pound rifle. I dont know a dang thing about Palma shooting, but I think that is over the international weight limit of Palma. Has the NRA ever set a weight limit for Palma? As I said, I am ignorant x 10 about PALMA.
Last edited:
Jim Watson
New member
I just looked, US Palma rifle rules specify only caliber (.223 or .308) and iron sights. No weight limit.
But since Palma is shot prone with a sling and none of the artificial support of F class or benchrest, there is a practical limit to how heavy a rifle you can hold up for 17 accurate shots.
International rules have a 6 kg (13 lb) rifle weight limit and 155 grain maximum bullet weight.
The iron sight rule militates against tiny little groups, but most Palma shooters have scope bases on their rifles for ammo testing or entry in Any Any matches.
But since Palma is shot prone with a sling and none of the artificial support of F class or benchrest, there is a practical limit to how heavy a rifle you can hold up for 17 accurate shots.
International rules have a 6 kg (13 lb) rifle weight limit and 155 grain maximum bullet weight.
The iron sight rule militates against tiny little groups, but most Palma shooters have scope bases on their rifles for ammo testing or entry in Any Any matches.
Tempest 455
New member
Well this is what I was trying to say being polite, not that you were not.
My bull barrel .308 gets extremely hot after firing a 20 round string in a 1,000 yard F class match. I know from testing, my .223 the group will open up considerably after 10 rounds.
Good point.
I suggest going to a benchrest discipline web site, looking up their records link, go to it then find out what the many-group aggreate records are for all the ranges they're shot at. The average of all those 3, 6 or more groups is what the record lists. One can fairly accurately tell what the biggest group fired for the record aggregate is by multiplying the agg record group size by 1.5. The answer's what the rifle and ammo can be counted on to shoot abouit 98% of the time in excellent conditions and good behaviour of the shooter. And all the other group agg records are bigger.
Forget record, few-shot record groups. They typically happen only once in the lifetime of a barrel. All the other hundreds of thousands of groups are bigger; much, much bigger.
Last edited:
Palma rifle is 15rd fired at 800,900 and 1000yd and is a score match and top score is 450-45x.
Below is the result for the Palma Individual Trophy match held at Camp Perry
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp540-13.pdf
As you see their no group shown and I'm sure Bart B can tell you the size of that target and as you see High score wins. You can win with 450 and no x count and equal score most x's wins.
In a group match at 1000yd you see actual group shot and smallest group wins and they also use the score method at some match also.
There is lot of small groups shot and I'm sure perfect score shot at practice but only real one that counts is at a match.
What little BR shooting I've done if a sporter light weight barrel wins a match (and that's 5 relay 5 target each relay with 5 shot group plus sighters) next match you see just about everyone shooting one as long as there is no minimum weight requirement.
I've never build a match rifle in same caliber as one of my deer/elk rifles so be hard for me to say if they be equal. and I can only comment on what I shoot.
Below is the result for the Palma Individual Trophy match held at Camp Perry
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp540-13.pdf
As you see their no group shown and I'm sure Bart B can tell you the size of that target and as you see High score wins. You can win with 450 and no x count and equal score most x's wins.
In a group match at 1000yd you see actual group shot and smallest group wins and they also use the score method at some match also.
There is lot of small groups shot and I'm sure perfect score shot at practice but only real one that counts is at a match.
What little BR shooting I've done if a sporter light weight barrel wins a match (and that's 5 relay 5 target each relay with 5 shot group plus sighters) next match you see just about everyone shooting one as long as there is no minimum weight requirement.
I've never build a match rifle in same caliber as one of my deer/elk rifles so be hard for me to say if they be equal. and I can only comment on what I shoot.
The best of those whippy, 30" long slender 5 and 6 pound Palma barrels will shoot inside of 1/2 to 5/8 MOA at 1000 yards properly tested. That's the same as much heavier barrels of near equal length weighing twice as much in long range benchrest rifles shoot. The limiting factor is mostly bullet quality; getting a batch of bullets that are perfectly balanced is more important than meplat trimming or sorting by shape. 1000-yard benchrest group aggreate records include some 5- or 10-shot ones in the 6 and 7 inch range.
Shoulder fired in a Palma match with aperture sights, a perfect score of 450-45X shot on the targets 10" X ring, 20" 10 ring and 30" 9 ring doesn't happen very often. Individual USA record's 450-35X and four man team record is 1796-119X 449-39.25X average score) shot with a coach constantly watching the wind very closely and giving sight changes to the shooters. With a 1/2 MOA rifle and ammo at long range, add that to the 3/4 MOA holding area on target the best shots have plus 1/4 MOA non-repeatable shooting position issues from having to reload and go back into position 45 times and unseen wind changes that'll move a bullet sideways 1/2 MOA or more. . .all your shots will go inside a 2 MOA circle. Maybe.
One thing some rifle smiths and shooters know is the most often cause of barrels walking shots as they heat up is caused by the way the barrel's fit to the receiver. Few, if any, commercial factory receivers have their face squared up with their barrel tenon thread axis. This means there's one point on the face that's further forward on the thread axis than all the rest. Barrel tenons are well squared up when made; their shoulder's very square with the chamber/bore axis. Screwing that barrel into one of those receivers ends up with one hard contact point off center from the bore axis. As both metal parts expand when they heat up, a stress line starts from that point forward and causes the barrel to bend and whip more in that direction. With a scope on the receiver, the line of fire now moves off its intended angle relative to the line of sight; the bullet strikes away from the point of aim. As the metal temperature goes higher, the more the line of fire moves away from the point of aim. Everyone I've had tell me about their hot barrel problems all report the shots start stringing in the same direction each time. Same on three factory rifles I had that did that. So, if you receiver face ain't squared up right, deal with point of impact change as the barrel heats up.
Shoulder fired in a Palma match with aperture sights, a perfect score of 450-45X shot on the targets 10" X ring, 20" 10 ring and 30" 9 ring doesn't happen very often. Individual USA record's 450-35X and four man team record is 1796-119X 449-39.25X average score) shot with a coach constantly watching the wind very closely and giving sight changes to the shooters. With a 1/2 MOA rifle and ammo at long range, add that to the 3/4 MOA holding area on target the best shots have plus 1/4 MOA non-repeatable shooting position issues from having to reload and go back into position 45 times and unseen wind changes that'll move a bullet sideways 1/2 MOA or more. . .all your shots will go inside a 2 MOA circle. Maybe.
One thing some rifle smiths and shooters know is the most often cause of barrels walking shots as they heat up is caused by the way the barrel's fit to the receiver. Few, if any, commercial factory receivers have their face squared up with their barrel tenon thread axis. This means there's one point on the face that's further forward on the thread axis than all the rest. Barrel tenons are well squared up when made; their shoulder's very square with the chamber/bore axis. Screwing that barrel into one of those receivers ends up with one hard contact point off center from the bore axis. As both metal parts expand when they heat up, a stress line starts from that point forward and causes the barrel to bend and whip more in that direction. With a scope on the receiver, the line of fire now moves off its intended angle relative to the line of sight; the bullet strikes away from the point of aim. As the metal temperature goes higher, the more the line of fire moves away from the point of aim. Everyone I've had tell me about their hot barrel problems all report the shots start stringing in the same direction each time. Same on three factory rifles I had that did that. So, if you receiver face ain't squared up right, deal with point of impact change as the barrel heats up.
Last edited:
I too have seen light weight barrels shoot real well but not real often.
The proof is in what happens at long range on long strings of say six sighters and 20 for record. That will tell you for sure.
Bart is exactly right the new Palma Contours are winners. I have a couple medium contours and I am really impressed with them.
The proof is in what happens at long range on long strings of say six sighters and 20 for record. That will tell you for sure.
Bart is exactly right the new Palma Contours are winners. I have a couple medium contours and I am really impressed with them.
One other thing about what metal parts are best for accuracy; receivers. Just like barrels, as long as the are repeatable in how they lock up, bend and twist for every shot fired, great accuracy is at hand.
Note the some wood stocked high power box magazine match rifles based on Win. 70 actions have shot test groups at long range smaller than current benchrest records shot with rifles based on huge, stiff, single-shot close tolerance fit actions glued into synthetic stocks.
Note the some wood stocked high power box magazine match rifles based on Win. 70 actions have shot test groups at long range smaller than current benchrest records shot with rifles based on huge, stiff, single-shot close tolerance fit actions glued into synthetic stocks.
I guess in F-Class palma shooting 1/2"or 5/8" MOA of angle is great @ 1000yds but if you look at the winning score I post 446-23x which mean 4pts got dropped so had 23 shots withing 10" X ring and 20 shots within the 20" 10 rings and 4 shot outside the 20" dia ring. those 4 shots are part of the total score and can not be overlooked as they could be in 9 ring @ 30" dia and without seeing target they could be on one yardage or all three.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
I'm not taking anything away from f-Class but when you start looking at a rifle that shoots a group maybe 30" at 800 to 1000yd or it could be 36" at a match.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
I'm not taking anything away from f-Class but when you start looking at a rifle that shoots a group maybe 30" at 800 to 1000yd or it could be 36" at a match.
Four points dropped making the score 446 out of a possible 450 could also have one of the following conditions for shots not inside the 10 ring:
* Two shots in the 44" 8 ring.
* One shot in the 30" 9 ring and one in the 54" 7 ring.
* One shot in the 6-point 72" square area outside the 54" diameter 7 ring.
* Two shots in the 44" 8 ring.
* One shot in the 30" 9 ring and one in the 54" 7 ring.
* One shot in the 6-point 72" square area outside the 54" diameter 7 ring.
Bart, 4pt is 4 pts and it does count. When you start talking MOA at 1000yd and what is actually shot at a match, that's for everyone to see and if their interested in what actual group is at that yardage pretty easy to figure out.
Like I said I'm not taking away from any F-Class shooter but the target size doesn't lie.
Like I said I'm not taking away from any F-Class shooter but the target size doesn't lie.
reynolds357
New member
They only way to actually know how accurate a rifle is would be to shoot it indoors and let a machine shoot it. Not many places that can be done at 1000 yds.
I am a hunter first and my accuracy interest is directed towards hunting and hunting rifles. I have no interest in how good a competition rifle shoots. Making a 200-300 yard shot in the woods under less than ideal conditions is more practical to my needs.
Bart B,
You are mirroring just about every thing I have read in JOC books on what barrels do when they get hot and why certain barrels do what they do when they get hot. Very nice explanation. Thank you. This is the stuff most gun owners don't want to even know about. Not me, the engineer in me has to know why things react the way they do.
The accuracy of a rifle can get to point where the guy behind the rifle is often over looked as part of the equation, at least in a hunting rifle scenario. You always hope that your skill level will at least mirror the accuracy of your rifle.
When I you see a bench gun shoot at 1000 yards very well and usually the gun is complemented. I am inclined to complement the guy behind the rifle rather than the rifle itself.
Bart B,
You are mirroring just about every thing I have read in JOC books on what barrels do when they get hot and why certain barrels do what they do when they get hot. Very nice explanation. Thank you. This is the stuff most gun owners don't want to even know about. Not me, the engineer in me has to know why things react the way they do.
The accuracy of a rifle can get to point where the guy behind the rifle is often over looked as part of the equation, at least in a hunting rifle scenario. You always hope that your skill level will at least mirror the accuracy of your rifle.
When I you see a bench gun shoot at 1000 yards very well and usually the gun is complemented. I am inclined to complement the guy behind the rifle rather than the rifle itself.
Last edited:
reynolds357
New member
Mystro, I agree to an extent about the shooter. Having said thatI saw a few years ago in a 200 yard match the girl friend of a top shooter, shoot his rifle. She had literally only been shooting a few weeks. She shot his rifle and his loads and won the match. Ittakes a long time to learn to shoot standing, kneeling, prone, etc. It takes a while to learn to develop loads. It takes a long time to learn to read wind and mirage. It does not take a real good shooter to shoot a near perfect piece of equipment in near perfect conditions off a mechanical rest.
Last edited:
4runnerman
New member
She had literally only been shooting a few weeks. She shot his rifle and his loads and won the match. Ittakes a long time to learn to shoot standing, kneeling, prone, etc. It takes a while to learn to develop loads. It takes a long time to learn to read wind and mirage. It does not take a real good shooter to shoot a near perfect piece of equipment in near perfect conditions off a mechanical rest.
Reyolds357--I have a chunk of Alaska I want to sell you to haha ( Just kidding).
Tell me you don't honestly believe that?. I will bet she had been shooting for a long time. If this story you say is true I have 2 thoughts for you.
1-- she lies about not shooting more often
2-- the rest of the shooters were Horrable shots.
I have been shooting for 30 plus years, It takes a knack and talent to shoot good. I will give you 300 yards for ease of shooting,but to go out to 600 or 1000 yards,I dont care how good the gun is it takes a heck of a lot more than the gun to do the job. I call BS on this one-- Sorry buddy
Back to the OP's story- He is correct, A standard barrel will shoot just as accurate as a heavy barrel hands down,Till you heat barrel up,That is where heavy barrel will start to shine.
Reyolds357--I have a chunk of Alaska I want to sell you to haha ( Just kidding).
Tell me you don't honestly believe that?. I will bet she had been shooting for a long time. If this story you say is true I have 2 thoughts for you.
1-- she lies about not shooting more often
2-- the rest of the shooters were Horrable shots.
I have been shooting for 30 plus years, It takes a knack and talent to shoot good. I will give you 300 yards for ease of shooting,but to go out to 600 or 1000 yards,I dont care how good the gun is it takes a heck of a lot more than the gun to do the job. I call BS on this one-- Sorry buddy
Back to the OP's story- He is correct, A standard barrel will shoot just as accurate as a heavy barrel hands down,Till you heat barrel up,That is where heavy barrel will start to shine.