Some Good News!~ Have Gun Will Vote!

cruiserman, no insult intended, just stating the truth. Proof that socialist = (democrats + republicans) is the history of the last 70-80 years. Americans with sight will not vote for a socialist because they know this is a Republic where the elected are required to swear, or affirm, to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. Republicans + democrats have not, for the most part, done that in at least 70-80 years. I'll not waste my vote on a socialist, it is well known they do not honor their oath of office and anyone who can't see that is politically blind.

I like some of the work Nader has done, but I don't like the platform of the Green Party. It has socialist leanings. So, no, I will not vote for Nader. I may vote for Phillips, Buchanan or Browne. I do believe either one of them will honor the oath. harrybrowne.org ..I know neither bush nor gore will.

Then too, I will vote for every office, local, State and federal on the ballot for anyone but a socialist. That excludes all republicans and democrats.
 
cruiserman,

LOL, I see your point. Good one! If the anti-gunners want to split their vote between Nadar and Al Gore, that would be fine with me.
smile.gif


Joe


------------------
Joe's Self Reliance & Preparedness Forum
 
Libertarian,
You get my vote for the punniest line of the year! (single issue voter,
indeed!)
-----

Monkeyleg,

I do NOT believe that someone who disagrees with me is mentally faulty, a
traitor, stupid, or any of the names I have been called for not bowing to the
Bush. I hope we can agree to disagree agreeably.

Groups with the same goals can vary much more than *we* vary on American
politics. Diverse groups in Germany all wanted peace and order.
Unfortunately they agreed neither on the definitions of those terms nor the
methods to achieve their goals.

I truly believe we *can* bring about the abolishment of gun control laws -
they ARE unconstitutional (as most of us fanatics agree
biggrin.gif
)!

I understand that separating the anti-Gore vote into Republican and “other”
parties weakens the resistance to Gore’s Presidential bid.

I also understand that Gore would *nominate* to the Supreme Court people
who hate guns and gun rights even more than the Republicans hate guns and
gun rights.

Where I differ from Republican supporters is how to bring about change.

Supporting Republican gun control will not reduce (let alone eliminate) gun
control. We will get the same gun control the Democrats would impose - only
imposed gradually over a longer time period.

The slow, salami-slicing away of our Rights by the Republicans is more
dangerous than the radical usurpation of Rights by the Democrats. The
arrogant transparency of the Democrats’ tyrannical actions could well unite
Americans against gun control. The slow, steady loss of Rights by the
Republicans is more likely to be successful.

Gore and Bush have the same eventual goal - domination of the masses
(that’s us) by the chosen few (that’s them).

Bush and Gore are tools of the same oligarchy - the zealous elitists who
believe they know better than us or the Founding Fathers how America
should be run. Therefore, both parties consider the restrictions of the
Constitution and our Bill of Rights to be petty impediments to be revised,
circumvented, or ignored.

Having virtually the same goals, the biggest difference between Gore and
Bush is merely the time period. And, in terms of fifty years or so, it matters
little whether Bush or Gore is elected. Therefore, the constant drum beat of
“if you don’t vote for Bush you automatically vote for Gore” is, quit frankly,
short-sighted at best and probably irrelevant.

Third party votes show the Republicans we have seen through their
smokescreen. If the Republicans see they are losing enough votes to lose
elections, they will change to regain those votes.

By supporting the Republicans, gun owners support gun control issues to be
delayed somewhat so it will be our children who will see gun control
implemented. Unfortunately, even many people who now vote do not
remember walking into a store, buying a firearm or ammunition and leaving
without the permission of the Republican/Democrat political state. I
remember. I have watched the gun control noose tightened by the
Republicans and the Democrats to the point I can no longer support those
gun control hangmen.

In civil terms, that is why I must stop supporting gun control. I must
support Liberty. The largest political party which says gun control is
unconstitutional is the Libertarian Party. Therefore, I *must* support the
most viable party which supports our Constitution.

If fighting for the abolishment of unconstitutional gun control makes me a
fanatic, if believing we *can* either vote the tyrants out or force them to
abandon their tyranny makes me a lunatic, then so be it. I shall not be
swayed. *MY* children will know I stood proudly with others whose beliefs I
treasure: Jefferson, Madison, Adams, and the rest of the Founding Fathers
who put their money, their homes, their families, their lives and their sacred
honor where their mouth was.

I am an American. I shall act like one.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Further, on the issue of the 2nd and HOW it is being rendered meaningless, negotiation and discussion is not compromise and mustn't necessarily lead to it.

Voting your conscience (1. The faculty of recognizing the distinction between right and wrong in regard to one's own conduct and 2. Conformity to one's own sense of right conduct) is not a wasted vote. That assertion gets my goat.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am an American. I shall act like one.[/quote] Hear, hear! And if I may add, " ... to my dying breath."
 
Dennis,

You have given the best defense that I have seen to date to justify voting for a Libertarian or another third party candidate for president, that has no chance of winning. Nevertheless, I still disagree with you.

You say...

I understand that separating the anti-Gore vote into Republican and “other”
parties weakens the resistance to Gore’s Presidential bid.

I also understand that Gore would *nominate* to the Supreme Court people
who hate guns and gun rights even more than the Republicans hate guns and
gun rights.

I suppose the thought of having Al Gore stack the Supreme Court with hand picked, liberal, antigun, activist judges and having them declare the Second Amendment a collectivist right that applies only to the National Guard doesn't bother you??? Are YOU ready for the 2nd Civil War? Brother, I can tell you that I am not, not as long as there is a peaceful solution to this mess we are in.

While it is obvious that the Democrats are most certainly antigun, I don't think that you can say that the Republicans in any large part are gun rights haters. I think the Republicans are for the most part driven by the polls and they are just looking out for their best interest. While this isn't necessarily a good thing, one can hardly blame them. They do need to get reelected and as long as the liberal biased news media is filling the airwaves with all sorts of antigun propaganda they have to try to appeal to the undecided middle like the soccer moms, after all, they are the ones who decide elections!

The real people that you should be upset with is the national press corps in this country. They are the real enemies of freedom, not the Republicans. The Republicans try to lower taxes and the press says they are cutting taxes for the rich, or if the Republicans try to enforce our borders, the press screams that they are racist. You get the idea.

Every time the Republicans try to do something good, like with the Contract With America, the Democrats and the national news media crucifies them. What do you want the Republicans to do, fall on their swords for the sake of ideological purity? What good would that do, but to get them thrown out of office?

Where I differ from Republican supporters is how to bring about change.

Supporting Republican gun control will not reduce (let alone eliminate) gun
control. We will get the same gun control the Democrats would impose - only
imposed gradually over a longer time period.

The slow, salami-slicing away of our Rights by the Republicans is more
dangerous than the radical usurpation of Rights by the Democrats. The
arrogant transparency of the Democrats’ tyrannical actions could well unite
Americans against gun control. The slow, steady loss of Rights by the
Republicans is more likely to be successful.

While I don't agree with your premise, you are overlooking the point that the Supreme Court is going to have to settle the matter of what the Second Amendment means once and for all. That is our best and maybe only last hope! It doesn't matter how either party slices a salami if we can get the Court to rule in our favor!!! We will NEVER get it to do that in our lifetimes with Al Gore picking the next three or four justices for the court. Even if the case in California and Emerson don't make it to the Supreme Court, there is still plenty of other reasons to want to have the court on our side, especially with all of the lawsuits against legitimate firearms manufacturers that are going on.

Once a Gore friendly Supreme Court is in place, it will signal the end of this country as we know it! It will be the beginning of the end. It force many people into the streets bearing arms for the cause of liberty. Is that really what you want while there is still a peaceful solution at hand? It sounds like it.

Gore and Bush have the same eventual goal - domination of the masses
(that’s us) by the chosen few (that’s them).

Bush and Gore are tools of the same oligarchy - the zealous elitists who
believe they know better than us or the Founding Fathers how America
should be run. Therefore, both parties consider the restrictions of the
Constitution and our Bill of Rights to be petty impediments to be revised,
circumvented, or ignored.

This is pure conjecture that has no basis in fact. Once again, I think the Republicans are only following the polls. Our real problem is with the liberal biased news media in this country who is brainwashing the masses every chance they get.

Having virtually the same goals, the biggest difference between Gore and
Bush is merely the time period. And, in terms of fifty years or so, it matters
little whether Bush or Gore is elected.

Bull pucky! Once they confiscate our firearms because of a collectivist interpretation of the Second Amendment, we damn sure won't get them back.

Therefore, the constant drum beat of
“if you don’t vote for Bush you automatically vote for Gore” is, quit frankly,
short-sighted at best and probably irrelevant.

Dennis, you are a smart man, but in this case I think it is you who is being short sided. Under normal circumstances I may have voted Libertarian this year, but this is not a normal year. Too much is at stake to just throw a vote away. Making political statements with our votes is a luxury that we simply cannot afford this time around. I hope that you will come to realize that.

Third party votes show the Republicans we have seen through their
smokescreen. If the Republicans see they are losing enough votes to lose
elections, they will change to regain those votes.

That is assuming that after they have seen the error of their ways that they will come back to the right! If they are the socialist that you think they are, why wouldn't they venture farther into the middle to regain the votes that they will lose to third parties?

Once again, it is the liberal biased press in this country that is our REAL problem! End of story!
smile.gif


Joe


------------------
Joe's Self Reliance & Preparedness Forum
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nralife:
I suppose the thought of having Al Gore stack the Supreme Court with hand picked, liberal, antigun, activist judges and having them declare the Second Amendment a collectivist right that applies only to the National Guard doesn't bother you??? Are YOU ready for the 2nd Civil War? Brother, I can tell you that I am not, not as long as there is a peaceful solution to this mess we are in.
[/quote]

So, which judges have given pro-gun rulings? There are very few gun control cases that have made it to higher courts. What makes you think GW would nominate judges that would rule that the 2nd is a recognition of an individual right? I'm willing to bet that even the so-called conservative judges on the Supreme Court are anti-gun with the possible exception of Clarence Thomas, bless him.

I agree with Dennis about the reaction against sweeping gun control proposals. It has steeled the resolve of gun owners, and it has added to our ranks, too. The NRA is on a huge membership drive, and I imagine the real gun rights organizations
smile.gif
like GOA and JPFO are seeing the same increases in membership.

[This message has been edited by cruiserman (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
cruiserman,

So, which judges have given pro-gun rulings? There are very few gun control cases that have made it to higher courts. What makes you think GW would nominate judges that would rule that the 2nd is a recognition of an individual right? I'm willing to bet that even the so-called conservative judges on the Supreme Court are anti-gun with the possible exception of Clarence Thomas, bless him.

I think you would lose that bet. We need someone like DC though, she could cite some examples of judges who have made decisions in our favor or who are probably pro-gun-rights. If we could only get a Supreme Court that is at least fair and that will judge the arguments on their own merits, we will win. Every Constitutional scholar of note, now including the respected, but liberal, Lawrence Tribe has come out on the "individual rights" side of the argument. One thing is for sure, if the Court is going to rule on the Second Amendment, I sure don't want any of Gore's hand picked judges having anything to do with the process.

I agree with Dennis about the reaction against sweeping gun control proposals. It has steeled the resolve of gun owners, and it has added to our ranks, too. The NRA is on a huge membership drive, and I imagine the real gun rights organizations like GOA and JPFO are seeing the same increases in membership.

Well, I never said that Dennis was completely wrong, but you need to remember that once a law is passed it is darn near impossible to get it repealed and with Gore with the veto pen, it would be impossible!

Go ahead and vote third party, Al Gore and the Democraps need all of the help that they can get.
smile.gif


Joe
 
Joe,
So we disagree. At least we still have the right to do that in public. However, if and when you disagree with me, do not exaggerate my opinions to make them appear the opposite of what they are:

“I suppose the thought of having Al Gore stack the Supreme Court with hand
picked, liberal, antigun, activist judges and having them declare the Second
Amendment a collectivist right that applies only to the National Guard doesn't
bother you??? Are YOU ready for the 2nd Civil War? Brother, I can tell you
that I am not, not as long as there is a peaceful solution to this mess we are
in.”

That is a gross misrepresentation of my viewpoint! I don’t like that, Joe.
Argue facts with me - not emotional, intentional mis-statements. Should I
respond by saying, “You want to give away our Constitution gradually so you
won’t have to admit that you sold our children and grandchildren into tyrannical
servitude”? I would not believe that of you.

1b) Our difference resides in our understanding of the current dilemma.

- If I understand your viewpoint, you feel the people who have given us
tyrannical gun control will reverse their position if you continue to support
them. Yet you point out the difficulty of having people who enact laws admit
the mistake and repeal them. The very facts you state refute your hopes.
The answer, quite logically, is to get different people!

You disagree that the Republicans and Democrats have increased their
control over us?

-- Taxes and welfare: Look at the *percentage* increase in taxes of nearly
every kind: income tax, property tax, sales tax, inheritance tax, etc. etc.
The government continues to punish effort and success while they encourage
laziness and failure.

-- My wife and I are each sole-proprietors. We could hire employees, give
people work and increase our business but we would lose approximately an
additional TWENTY percent of our labor by doing so because of additional
taxes and the loss of tax-deductible expenses. We *dare not* increase our
business! We can NOT afford it.

-- Try to build a house without permits for virtually every aspect of the
house. For our safety? Probably. But you must ask your friendly
government for permission, pay for permits, pay for inspectors, etc. etc. etc.

-- But let’s stick to gun control:

When I was seven years old, my Dad would give me pocket change and I
would run into Western Auto and buy ammunition of ANY caliber in virtually
ANY amount. Why can't we do that now?

When I was in my early teens, I walked into Sears and bought a .22 revolver.
It only took money - no identification, no government forms, no telephone
call begging the government to permit the purchase as they documented the
sale in a national database. Why can't we do that now?

The press did not pass the laws that revoked our freedoms! Reporters only kiss the government’s Papal ring to get “inside” information and publish what pleases the government. If a reporter rakes a President over the coals, the reporter kills the goose that lays the golden news and his career is dead. It is the government which controls the press. No longer do the press and the people control the government.

I’ll stop here with this comment. Joe, if you truly feel the government has
not continued a constant plan of domination, you and I have little to discuss.
Those who believe that the Republicans are “for the people” will follow those
Judas Goats all the way to the slaughterhouse.

Me? I have watched how our government has increased their control over
the last fifty years. Like Patrick Henry, I have no way to judge the future but
by the past. Therefore, I believe it is time for a change. It is time to restore
our Constitution while we still have some power left at the ballot box. Make
no mistake, Joe. It is the ballot box I prefer to use.

Our government continues to legislate us into subservience. To rely upon
those same people to restore the very rights they have taken will lead us to
servitude or war.

And I, sir, hope you will come to realize that.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Dennis,

I don't think that I grossly misrepresented your statements at all, at least not intentionally. I am somewhat offended that you would say that I would intentionally misrepresent anything. The facts speak for themselves...

You said...

I understand that separating the anti-Gore vote into Republican and “other”
parties weakens the resistance to Gore’s Presidential bid.

I also understand that Gore would *nominate* to the Supreme Court people
who hate guns and gun rights even more than the Republicans hate guns and gun rights.

and then I said...

I suppose the thought of having Al Gore stack the Supreme Court with hand picked, liberal, antigun, activist judges and having them declare the Second Amendment a collectivist right that applies only to the National Guard doesn't bother you??? Are YOU ready for the 2nd Civil War? Brother, I can tell you that I am not, not as long as there is a peaceful solution to this mess we are in.


In light of what you said about knowing full well what Al Gore would do to the Supreme Court and your rhetoric about the motives of both major political parties in both of your posts, I don't think what I said was a misrepresentation at all. Maybe, you are finally awakening to the absurdity of your logic and you don't like what you see? Besides, my reply to you was in the form of questions to clarify your remarks, too bad you missed that.
smile.gif


Dennis, you and I have gone a few rounds on this issue before and it got us nowhere. I don't wish do it again. I understand where you are coming from. It is sad that the freedoms we enjoyed when we were younger are gone today. I too, am a Libertarian at heart. I'm no big fan of Republicans either, it's just that I truly think that since our Second Amendment rights are being attacked like never before and the future of the Supreme Court is at stake, that this one time we need to bite the bullet and vote for Bush. If Bush and the Republicans sell us out, I will be with you 100 percent next time around.


jeffelkins,

You said...

Funny how a GOP Senate has confirmed every Clinton judicial nominee. Every one. By wide margins too.

I would almost be willing to bet that your statement isn't true. In fact it sounds like BS to me. I do know that all throughout both terms of the Clinton administration that the Republicans have been accused of stonewalling the process of confirming the Clinton nominees. I can remember the Democrats going on the Sunday morning talk shows several times and complaining, with the help of an all too eager biased press I might add, about how Orrin Hatch and the Republicans weren't confirming any judges. They were talking about all of the vacancies and court backlogs all around the country. If the Republicans were so eager to confirm Clinton's nominees, why was there all of the foot dragging and delaying going on, HMMMMmmm????

Joe

A vote for the Libertarian is a vote for Al Gore!

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
nralife, what do you pick winners and predict the future by? If undisturbed is not history of politics the most accurate indicator of future politics? Plain and simple, who are the people enacting unconstitutional legislation? How many years have they done that? Is there any other answer than democrats and republicans? And at least 70-80 years?

Your ideas are without fact in many areas, particularly concerning the Supreme Court. No court is authorized to enact any law. It is pure nonsense in voting for a President by guessing what they may do in appointing judges. Have you asked yourself who sold you that bucket of manure? And why you bought it? Don't you think it is past time for voters to think for themselves and not believe what politicos tell them?

Arguments of voting for one candidate elects another, or vote for a winner, or vote against someone, or he can't win, etc, are rather goofy ideas don't you think?

Reading this board I have to believe most of the posters don't know the reason to vote. It is as if they think the democrat party or republican party is America. Or the federal government is America. I'll give it to you guys straight, if America the Republic and freedom means anything at all to you then you better start thinking for yourself. Democrats and republicans in elected office are robbing you blind and enslaving you and your children. A rational American has no choice but to vote third party come November.

BTW, the purpose of the vote in this Republic is to elect a citizen who will honor the oath of office. The job of the elected is not the fickle wishy washy will of the people, but to Preserve, Protect and Defend the Constitution. The Constitution says what the elected can and cannot do, not We, The People, thank goodness for the wisdom of our Founder Fathers.

Dennis, I am proud to call you my fellow American. Please keep on trying to awaken the politically brainwashed.
ahampton@tcainternet.com
 
Allan,

I am growing tried of discussing this issue. It has been well debated on this forum for months now. If you want to see what has been said, perhaps you can do a "search," so that you can get yourself up to speed. Having only made 9 posts yourself, I think that I can safely say that you have missed out on a lot of what has gone on here.

While I am a Libertarian at heart, as far as I am concerned, I am a one issue voter. I will vote for the most progun candidate regardless of party affiliation, that is as long as they are electable. I don't care who or what someone one is or who they sleep with as long as they are progun! There are many progun Democrats as well as Republicans and independents. We need them ALL on our side and we are not going to get them to back us in this fight for our Second Amendment rights by making them adhere to some test of ideological purity.

Bottom line is this...

Either Al Gore or George Bush will be the next president of the United States. Pick one of the above or go vote for someone who can't win. The choice is yours. I will be able to live with my choice. If Al Gore is elected, I hope you can live with yours.

No more need said.

Joe

btw: For the last time, I can do without your patronizing comments. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that they haven't studied the issues thoroughly.
smile.gif


[This message has been edited by nralife (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
nralife, doesn't matter how many post I've read nor missed nor how much is posted here on any subject because I can think. And I know the purpose of government and the vote in this Republic.

Telling people who the winner is or who to vote for or he can't win requires more proof than posts on this board for me to swallow. IMO no one knows for sure.

The problem is not thinking. Like being a one issue voter, that is not very smart thinking especially when the issue is guns. Nor is it very smart to think for one second that either bush or gore will honor the oath of office, much less the 2nd, when they or their comrades in office clearly do not.

We, The People, elect citizens to office in this Republic to Preserve, Protect and Defend the Constitution. We do not elect them in this Republic to follow the wishy washy will of the people, thank goodness. Nor one issue after another. Let's see not so long ago the one issue was the economy, stupid, wasn't it? I wonder if the socialist will ever run out of one issue elections?

If our Rights, all of them, mean anything at all then we best elect someone who will honor the oath of office, in every office. Definite fact proved by history democrats and republicans elected do not honor their oath. How much more proof do we need than the last 70-80 years? Of course no amount of proof will suffice if there is no knowledge of what is a Republic and the Constitution.

In government and politics I am a one dimension guy myself, the Constitution. And I have no intentions to quit posting here are anywhere else and replying to socialist propaganda. Otherwise known as lies and/or brainwashing.

Yeah, you bet I'll not vote for a socialist for any office in this Republic nor anyone who has dishonored the oath, or that I am reasonably sure will dishonor it. Political party be hanged.
 
Thanks, Allan. The struggle continues. Welcome.
wink.gif


------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Allan,

I understand where you and Dennis are coming from. I admit that there is no rock solid guarantee that Bush will nominate progun judges. I do think that there is a high likelihood of Gore appointees being on the anti' side though and we already know what kind of registration schemes he has in store for us.

As Dennis pointed out, we could avoid the salami style gun control that he purports Republicans are for, by voting for neither of the two major candidates. I think if you are honest that you will admit that there is no rock solid guarantee that his plan will work either. Actually, there may be some evidence that it will not work. Look at what has already happened in the UK, Australia, and Canada. The pain must have been and is unbearable for many of the citizens of those countries and they have not thrown off the shackles of tyranny yet. What is up with that?

I agree that being a one issue voter is not normally a good idea, especially if you tell your elected officials about it. Please help me out here.

You said...

The problem is not thinking. Like being a one issue voter, that is not very smart thinking especially when the issue is guns.

Why is it especially bad if the issue is guns? It would seem to me that guns would be about the ONLY issue that a person would want to be a single issue voter for. As I'm sure that you are aware, it is the Second Amendment that is the glue that holds the Constitution together, so why wouldn't the "guns" issue be important enough to turn one into a one issue voter. I hope you will answer that question. After all, this is a Second Amendment related forum that you are on and there are many people here who vote the same way that I do.

Thanks,
Joe

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
nralife, that's a tough one for me to answer. My reasoning comes from the fact of the size and scope of the opposition and a brainwashed public on the issue of guns. It is quite clear to me the anti-guns are winning (have won) control of the public's mind on guns.

Anyone who believes a gun could kill anything is beyond rational help on that subject.

Nothing said by the man in the street opposing the media and politicos indoctrination of fear will suffice. It will get the man demonized, discredited and all to the joy of the public.

Then too, taking any one subject out of the Constitution to make an on going issue of it is a limit on the intent of the Constitution. Intent is probably the most important part of the Constitution to understand. And such is not in print form in that document. The only common ground of all Americans is the intent of the Constitution. Taking the Constitution piecemeal is not necessarily common to all Americans. Particularly those easily mislead and/or those who do not understand intent. How far removed is intent today? Well consider even in a court of law where there is no such thing as an accident anymore.

The issue of electing the next scumbag to any public office is much larger than any single issue, except the Constitution and the oath of office. The oath of office IS the reason (what for) we vote in this Republic.

nralife, I wish you and all people of the world Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and especially to Americans because that is their Law (Constitution). Our L L & H are in great jeopardy to day because of politics and political parties.
 
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