Solid copper hollow points....

[booker_t]

Copper is expensive.

The Army just rolled out their improved 5.56 cartrige, which employs a "green" non-lead projectile and claims higher velocity, greater accuracy, and less muzzle flash. Developed at Picatinny Arsenal in NJ, I don't know the specifics but there are press releases available on the innerwebs.

A radioactive shell exploding into Millions of microscopic particles..

DU and Tungsten aren't typically used in exploding shells, they are used for the tip of long-rod sub-caliber penetrators, which employ kinetic energy as their kill mechanism, not explosive force.

They suit this application for numerous reasons. I'll discuss two:

1) Density. DU is significantly more dense than armor steel, aluminum, or composites. The concentrated kinetic energy delivered by a long-rod penetrator bores through armor plate with minimal erosion, cutting a hole through critical components along the shot line and spraying spall and fragments throughout the target, killing the crew, setting fires, etc.

2) Torsional flexibility. Whether in a rifled bore or when fired from a smooth bore but fin stabilized, a kinetic energy round undergoes tremendous torque that deforms the material. DU and Tungsten are strong but not brittle, and are able to flex without permenantly deforming.

 

[briandg]

Depleted uranium is simply metallic uranium that has been centrifuged to remove all U235, and all that is left is u 238. U238 loses an alpha particle (weak ionizing radiation) that is considered relatively harmless; it won't even penetrate the skin, or the lining of the stomach. It decays at such a slow rate that a chunk of DP in your body could take a century to develop into a cancer. Replacing dp with tungsten was a huge step backwards in efficiency.

DP rounds, when they strike, detonate after penetration. The energy and temperature raise the metal to flash point as it is blown into dust. A DP round fired through armor can work as an incendiary round, by exploding and sucking the oxygen out of the air. We have an antitank rocket that works by blowing molten aluminum through the nose of the missile as it strikes; this molten aluminum immediately turns into a torch of incredible heat and energy that burns through armor in miliseconds. Not a chance of survival if it penetrates. Hot, vaporized metals, especially those with only a few electrons in the outer shell are very reactive to the oxygen in the air.

Carbide is used two ways. In the case of the Speer african, it is a solid core of tool grade tungsten carbide. In the case of some tungsten shot, some bullets, and frangibles, it is either compressed powder, powder in a matrix, an alloy, or some other form; not tool grade tungsten carbide. TC is lighter in density than straight tungsten, so it would defeat the purpose and actually increase the cost enormously to use tool grade solid tc.

 

[booker_t]

briandg, where is your information coming from?

U238 loses an alpha particle (weak ionizing radiation) that is considered relatively harmless

While alpha particles do not penetrate even paper very well, they are extremely toxic once inside the body, even in extremely small quantities.

Polonium-210, an apha emitter. Would you consider this "relatively harmless" ?

antitank rocket that works by blowing molten aluminum through the nose of the missile as it strikes

I think you are confusing a kinetic-energy penetrator with a shaped-charge anti-armor weapon. Typically copper is the liner material of choice for shaped-charge jet (jet, not "torch" or molten metal) penetrators, however aluminum does penetrate some more erosive/brittle materials (such as concrete) better. There are other more exotic shaped-charge materials used as well.

DP rounds, when they strike, detonate after penetration

No, they do not detonate. DU is pyrophoric and will ignite, but not detonate. The material will cinter as a result of self-sharpening as it penetrates, throwing off sparks as the removed material is finely divided (dust, you got that part right). The fine powder will then ignite.

 

[brickeyee]

Depleted uranium is simply metallic uranium that has been centrifuged to remove all U235, and all that is left is u 238.

Not all the U235 is removed by any means.

Natural uranium ore is about 0.790% U235.
Depleted gets that down to 0.2 to 0.4% U235.

It is still mildly radioactive, but the large half-life 700 million years, the actual rate of emission is rather low.

Uranium is highly toxic as a heavy metal unrelated to radioactivity.

Like most metals the metallic form is not easily absorbed, but the penetrator is pyrophoric (it self ignites and burns from the kinetic energy of collision heating it up).

This makes a witches brew of products that are more easily absorbed into the body by breathing or ingesting (like the lead from priming compound after firing).

While Gulf War Syndrome is likely real, by jumping on the 'DU caused it' bandwagon a mistake was made.

Uranium poisoning has known symptoms that do not match the symptoms observed.

They should have stuck with 'unknown cause' and pushed for research on ALL possible causes.

 

[briandg]

You are right, I have some poorly worded information there.

By molten aluminum, I meant that a core or plate of aluminum is used with a shaped charge to add an even higher temp and greater explosion to the focused explosion of the shaped charge. yes, copper is used in many of them. There a whole lot of different missiles, for various means; we are probably fielding almost a dozen configurations of the hellfire.

Keep in mind that Du has a half life of 4.5 billion years, polonium is almost literally on fire, with a half life of 130 days or so. There really is no comparing u238 to polonium. a gram of Po puts out as much radiation as 5 kg of radium It is so hot that it will make the air around it glow from ionization. very powerful stuff, even if it is only an alpha emitter.

All of the heavy metals are toxic, in various doses, and it is probable that a person would die of metallic poisoning before a lethal amount of radiation was ingested.

Du sheds so little radioactivity that it is considered inert by some standards, for example, the pentagon?

 

[booker_t]

briandg, 10-4.

 

[Super-Dave]

Everywhere we have used depleted uranium the birth defect rates shoot up over 400 and 500 percent.

I truly believe it is harmful to life and should be banned internationaly.

Although I do not suffer from Gulf War Syndrome I know many people who do. Most of which were around depleted uranium use. I was not around any tanks(only Iraqi tanks destroyed by Tow's) and was part of task force Grizzly. We went in on foot 3 days before the war started.

 

[briandg]

There's no way of proving any of it, but I honestly believe that most, if not all of the concerns with DU related illness are related more to the poisonous effects of the metal, rather than the minimal radiation dose.

In the area I live, we have heavy metals all through the area in the soil. You see some of it affecting the people here.

You guys should see what mercury does to the brain. :barf:

 

[booker_t]

Indeed, heavy metal poisoning can be devastating in high dosage, and oddly debilitating in small, long-term dosage. The symptoms can be widely varied, intermittant, and difficult to attribute to any particular cause.

To make it even worse, I believe that our country has failed our returning war fighters by 1) not being prepared/anticipating post-war medical/mental issues and 2) not responding to the problem once it presented itself.

I believe it is a failure of Government, the military, and our citizenry. "Support the Troops" means more than just putting a magnetic ribbon on your car. Support means giving them what they need before, during, and after conflict to afford them the same quality of life as those they protect.

Unfortunately, actually doing it is the hard part. Committing to do it shouldn't be.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

To get us back on-topic so the thread isn't closed, I question the effects of a solid copper projectile in a rifled bore... and ways to optimize the interface layer either through modified rifling or lubrication.

Also, would there be accuracy benefits from using a relatively heavy, precisely balanced core.

 

[brickeyee]

To get us back on-topic so the thread isn't closed, I question the effects of a solid copper projectile in a rifled bore... and ways to optimize the interface layer either through modified rifling or lubrication.

There are already solid copper bullets on the market (Barnes and others) some designed as 'solids' for dangerous game.

We already use mostly copper in the jackets of lead core bullets, so simple friction is not the problem.

An issue that does show up is that the solid copper bullets can raise pressures compared to a lead core.

It just takes more force to deform the solid copper bullet (engraving on the rifling).

This can be reduced some by putting circumferential grooves in the copper bullet on the portions that are full diameter.

The grooves provide a place for the metal displaced during engraving on the rifling to go.

The lower density of copper means the bullets are either lighter for the same physical size, or longer for the same weight.
This can affect stability since the length is a driver, and the lower rotating mass produces less stability.

 

[briandg]

regarding copper as a rifle bullet, as the use of lead cores becomes more and more under fire, so to speak, I am convinced that an entirely new line of rifles and cartridges will be developed for regions that ban lead. The major makers will have no problem simply altering barrels. cartridges already exist in a million different types, it will be a small thing to make these changes. Unleaded ammunition is the thing of the future.