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Soldiers refuse to salute Clinton
- Thread starter Kodiac
- Start date
Karanas..
" One has to wonder how many of our men and women in
the military ask themselves whether this president, who has proven
that he can lie to anyone about anything at anytime, would send
them into harms way not for any reason that would truly be in the
national interest, but for some political advantage that would only
serve his personal need."
Hasn't that already occurred?
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
" One has to wonder how many of our men and women in
the military ask themselves whether this president, who has proven
that he can lie to anyone about anything at anytime, would send
them into harms way not for any reason that would truly be in the
national interest, but for some political advantage that would only
serve his personal need."
Hasn't that already occurred?
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Keith Rogan
New member
When did Clinton go to Bosnia to address the troops - a year ago?
Anyway, my brother wrote me that every single soldier in the theater had to remove the bolt from their rifle and turn it in several hours prior to El Presidente's visit. This at the orders of the White House.
Do the troops respect the President? No!
I also am active duty military, do I respect the president? No!
Do I think this violates my oath? No!
The oath first reminds me to protect the constitution and only THEN to obey the orders of my superiors.
Has Bill Clinton obeyed his oath to follow the laws of the land? Has the congress failed to remove the president for "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"? Has Bill Clinton pushed laws that violate the Constitution and Bill of Rights?
The divider between protecting the constitution and obeying the orders of ones superiors seems to be in conflict here. Let every member of the armed forces mull this over and decide whether their conscience will allow them to show respect for the President.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Anyway, my brother wrote me that every single soldier in the theater had to remove the bolt from their rifle and turn it in several hours prior to El Presidente's visit. This at the orders of the White House.
Do the troops respect the President? No!
I also am active duty military, do I respect the president? No!
Do I think this violates my oath? No!
The oath first reminds me to protect the constitution and only THEN to obey the orders of my superiors.
Has Bill Clinton obeyed his oath to follow the laws of the land? Has the congress failed to remove the president for "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"? Has Bill Clinton pushed laws that violate the Constitution and Bill of Rights?
The divider between protecting the constitution and obeying the orders of ones superiors seems to be in conflict here. Let every member of the armed forces mull this over and decide whether their conscience will allow them to show respect for the President.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Ed Brunner
New member
I had not heard that our president fears his own troops although I certainly can see why.
I dont doubt the story. Has this ever been in print before?
------------------
Better days to be,
Ed
I dont doubt the story. Has this ever been in print before?
------------------
Better days to be,
Ed
Well these troopers probably have their collective butts in a sling, but you got to admire their nerve.
If I had run into clinton when I was a soldier, I'd salute him because that is the proper procedure. I'd hate it, but I'd do it.
These days, as a civilian, I salute him with one finger!
If I had run into clinton when I was a soldier, I'd salute him because that is the proper procedure. I'd hate it, but I'd do it.
These days, as a civilian, I salute him with one finger!
By the way, I don't know that it makes a difference whether the military person is an E-1 or Chairman of the JCS. Military rules and traditions are "supposed" to apply across the board.
Above my desk (as an E-7) I had a copy of an excerpt from an Army Officers' Training Manual circa 1917. As best I can remember (from 1979, it read:
"Enlisted men are stupid, but cunning and sly and bear considerable watching".
We all (including the officers in my shop) enjoyed the heck out that, including the Commander, a Major General. The point, as we took it, was that enlisted men 100 or more years ago usually were unable to read or write. There were no other truly effective and accurate means of communication back then (no TV, radio, not even the Internet, God!). Officers, OTOH, were usually literate, frequently "quite so".
Enlisted men these days are as likely to be informed as many of their "superiors" and, typically, less likely to be Politically Correct. However, with this "enlightenment" remains the obligation to follow the rules (?at least in public?).
Salute the sucker. Then vote him out of office.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 14, 1999).]
Above my desk (as an E-7) I had a copy of an excerpt from an Army Officers' Training Manual circa 1917. As best I can remember (from 1979, it read:
"Enlisted men are stupid, but cunning and sly and bear considerable watching".
We all (including the officers in my shop) enjoyed the heck out that, including the Commander, a Major General. The point, as we took it, was that enlisted men 100 or more years ago usually were unable to read or write. There were no other truly effective and accurate means of communication back then (no TV, radio, not even the Internet, God!). Officers, OTOH, were usually literate, frequently "quite so".
Enlisted men these days are as likely to be informed as many of their "superiors" and, typically, less likely to be Politically Correct. However, with this "enlightenment" remains the obligation to follow the rules (?at least in public?).
Salute the sucker. Then vote him out of office.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 14, 1999).]
As someone who put in 6 years of active duty I have some appreciation of the military mindset. However, I am very glad to hear that the soldiers took this action , knowing that would suffer the concenquences.
We do NOT want our military, police, etc. blindly following orders. Following orders in 99 percent of the cases is what good but an open mind should be kept for unlawful and totally bull**** orders. If the Aussie police have their heads screwed on straight they will NOT try to enforce the bad law their government has forced on them. We may find ourselves in just such a prediciment within our lifetime. Let us hope the police / military thinks carefuly before they decide to enforce a law or render honors to a bad guy.
We do NOT want our military, police, etc. blindly following orders. Following orders in 99 percent of the cases is what good but an open mind should be kept for unlawful and totally bull**** orders. If the Aussie police have their heads screwed on straight they will NOT try to enforce the bad law their government has forced on them. We may find ourselves in just such a prediciment within our lifetime. Let us hope the police / military thinks carefuly before they decide to enforce a law or render honors to a bad guy.
Ed Brunner
New member
A military person owes the President respect as the Commander in Chief.There can be no question about that. They owe him no respect as a person.As a person they can give him as much or as little as they choose. It has usually been assumed that the troops would know the difference,but it gets tougher every day and it is not their fault.
Loyal troops are what make the military work and it is up to the leaders to win that loyalty.
Gen James Gavin said something to the effect that you had to get the troops everything they needed and wanted because someday you would stand before them and ask them to die.
I dont think that our present CiC understands that.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Loyal troops are what make the military work and it is up to the leaders to win that loyalty.
Gen James Gavin said something to the effect that you had to get the troops everything they needed and wanted because someday you would stand before them and ask them to die.
I dont think that our present CiC understands that.
------------------
Better days to be,
Ed
Jeff Thomas
New member
I'll admit I never served in our military - graduated high school in 1970, was never drafted, and no service would guarantee a school / training to me. I respect those who served, and I tend to regard Lyndon Johnson as having been just this side of a war criminal.
If I was in the military, I can't imagine a man I would hold in more contempt than Bill Clinton. When I consider how military personnel have been raked over the coals in Tail Hook and other sex-related scandals, often with what appeared to be very biased 'justice'. And then this a****le comes along with his 'consensual affair' in the Oval Office, and refuses to take the responsibility he and his supporters have forced upon others.
Certainly a military which is antagonistic to the CIC is troubling, but I find it very hard to find fault with the men and women of our armed forces who feel they are being led by a liar and a cheat. And, certainly by his failure to take responsibility, a coward.
Yes, they should respect the office. But, I no longer respect it, and I cannot abuse them for the same feelings. The solution is to get a competent and respectable human being in that office. I don't honestly know if the American people even care anymore who leads them, as long as the stock market keeps rising.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 14, 1999).]
If I was in the military, I can't imagine a man I would hold in more contempt than Bill Clinton. When I consider how military personnel have been raked over the coals in Tail Hook and other sex-related scandals, often with what appeared to be very biased 'justice'. And then this a****le comes along with his 'consensual affair' in the Oval Office, and refuses to take the responsibility he and his supporters have forced upon others.
Certainly a military which is antagonistic to the CIC is troubling, but I find it very hard to find fault with the men and women of our armed forces who feel they are being led by a liar and a cheat. And, certainly by his failure to take responsibility, a coward.
Yes, they should respect the office. But, I no longer respect it, and I cannot abuse them for the same feelings. The solution is to get a competent and respectable human being in that office. I don't honestly know if the American people even care anymore who leads them, as long as the stock market keeps rising.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 14, 1999).]
Under UCMJ enlisted or NCO personnel are allowed to file charges of "conduct not becoming to an officer". This necessitates an investigation of the officers conduct pending disciplinary action against the officer under UCMJ. Since this does not apply to Clinton and he has already admitted to actions that would result in a Courts Martial (he has been impeached!), should we expect soldiers to observe the normal customs and courtesies afforded an officer? I think not. DLS
Brett Bellmore
New member
A question about this rule, which I've been wondering about ever since that bombing campaign which began a few hours before the impeachment vote, and ended a few hours afterwards: If Clinton states that his military advisors have told him an attack is millitarilly justified, and he's lying, would said advisors be in violation of 88 if they said so?
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
dundee,
Just in case you haven't noticed bad laws being cheerfully enforced: Seizure without due process in violation of the Constitution.
The Supreme Court ruling that LEA's have no duty to inform you of the procedure to reclaim seized property.(The point here is not what the Supreme Court ruled. An ordinary sense of justice would dictate outlining the procedure. Apparently that ordinary sense of justice is lacking.)
Routine searches conducted outside the parameters outlined in the Constitution. The proliferation of multiple charges for one criminal act-to hell with double jeopardy, just change the name. Conspiracy laws that allow a single person to be found guilty of conspiracy (say what-they conspired alone?) Bribery laws that convict a person for taking a bribe while finding the person accused of giving a bribe innocent. And the list rolls on and on and on. Does anyone know of one LEO who has refused to enforce these laws or who has resigned in protest? I truly want to know if you do know someone who has done either-it would tend to restore flagging hope for my country.
Just in case you haven't noticed bad laws being cheerfully enforced: Seizure without due process in violation of the Constitution.
The Supreme Court ruling that LEA's have no duty to inform you of the procedure to reclaim seized property.(The point here is not what the Supreme Court ruled. An ordinary sense of justice would dictate outlining the procedure. Apparently that ordinary sense of justice is lacking.)
Routine searches conducted outside the parameters outlined in the Constitution. The proliferation of multiple charges for one criminal act-to hell with double jeopardy, just change the name. Conspiracy laws that allow a single person to be found guilty of conspiracy (say what-they conspired alone?) Bribery laws that convict a person for taking a bribe while finding the person accused of giving a bribe innocent. And the list rolls on and on and on. Does anyone know of one LEO who has refused to enforce these laws or who has resigned in protest? I truly want to know if you do know someone who has done either-it would tend to restore flagging hope for my country.
Have yall seen his lips moving lately? On troops on the ground in Kosovo Clinton said "I choose my words very carefully". I'll still salute the Office of The President of The United States of America and hope that we will soon have some trustworthy elected officials and bureaucrats around to keep an eye on all of us.
My .02 Hank
My .02 Hank