Socialized Medicine

H

HarrySchell

New member
John Edwards keeps hammering away at the refusal by CIGNA to pay for a liver transplant for a young lady in Glendale CA. CIGNA reversed their decision, under public pressure, but the girl died before the transplant could happen.

Edwards holds this up as his favorite (for now) example of corporate greed at the expense of people.

Has anyone heard more of the story than this? Does anyone think socializing healthcare will eliminate denial of service in every case of medical need, i.e., that there will never be a triage decision to deny care based on the likelihood of success and/or the survival expectancy of the patient?

I am curious how much of the whole story has been publicized, and what the expectations of government healthcare performance are.

Moderator-realize this is off-topic about guns, but it is a political issue of some importance. Handle as you wish, though. I think it is, in light of experience in other socialized medical schemes, a case of replacing "CIGNA" with the name of a government agency. the same sad story will replay again and again. Since I have not seen anyone challenge this idea, I wonder if I don't understand things.
 
No Harry it won't reduce the refusals, it will just redistribute them more evenly. John Edwards will still be able to fly over to some other country for the medical treatment he desires, just as Tony Blair used to come here often for "state" visits when his wife was pregnant. Coincidence?

This can be connected to guns quite easily. Once the public has a nominal interest in your health care, they can regulate the things you do. Seatbelts and motorcycle helmet laws are a prime example. Once they are 100% invested in your health, they then have a right to deny you activities that 51% of the congress may think dangerous.

Do you think that 51% of congress today thinks guns are too dangerous? What about in two years when a new Congress is seated?
 
Does anyone think socializing healthcare will eliminate denial of service in every case of medical need, i.e., that there will never be a triage decision to deny care based on the likelihood of success and/or the survival expectancy of the patient?
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If healthcare is socialized, denial of service will get WORSE, not better. If you don't believe me, ask anyone treated under Medicaid, or in the VA system.
 
... or in the US Military. Generally the care you got in the Army is about what the government can deliver. Also remember that the physicians in the Army are treating a large population of healthy men in their early 20's and 30's. Imagine throwing in a population where half are over 50 and lived sedentary lifestyles. Oops.

No I think that socialized medicine is a disaster. My disabilities were because it took them a full year to get me to an orthopedic surgeon for the necessary repairs. Bones heal on their time frame, not the governments, so unfortunately I am limited in my abilities to walk, run, jump or carry. If I'd had been a civilian, I wouldn't have these problems and the government would have saved a lot of money in disability payments to me, not to mention the money they spent on Vocational Rehabilitation (essentially the cost of putting me through four years of college).

The VA has been pretty good to me though.
 
I'm against socialized anything.

The counter argument is that "only the rich will have doctors."

BS thinking. Only the people with money will have doctors. You know, the guys that show up for work.

Take a look at subsidized housing. Judging by the treatment of those buildings, do you think that society's sacrifices have turned around that segment of our population?

In Wisconsin, we just upped our cigarette tax by a dollar a pack.

What I find bizarre about the urge for socialized medicine is that the people most likely to benefit are the same folks who sit in taverns, smoke, and complain about the government.

If you have four bucks per pack for cigarettes and can easily dump twenty bucks per night schmoozing over drinks with your townie friends, you don't need socialized medicine.

You need a kick in the keester--with a enough momentum to launch you over the Canadian border.
 
... or in the US Military. Generally the care you got in the Army is about what the government can deliver.
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That is an absolutely untrue statement. What you got in the military was the bast care you could get from the worst of the worst doctors in the country. Good doctors do not join the military.

And for people that say they are against socialized anything, then I guess you don't use the highways, or drink the water, or use most of the modern conveniences that the govt has provided.
 
Good doctors do not join the military.
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Thats not entirely true. There are many good doctors in the military for the first few years of their careers. The military has excellent programs to help pay for medical school, but it requires a commitment of 4 to 6 yrs after you complete residency.

The docs I would be afraid of are those who have been longer than that.
 
Thats not entirely true. There are many good doctors in the military for the first few years of their careers.
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That was true 20 yrs ago for a short while but these days most hospitals will exceed what the military offers for desireable candidates. The good ones that do join pick the Air Force.

My father-n-law and bother-n-law are both doctors. My father-n-law did the Air Force thing and says he would not do it if he was a new doc today because any number of private firms would give him a better offer.

My brother-n-law experienced the same thing. The military could not mach the offers he got from small town hospitals.
 
The 3 best doctors i ever had were returned military docs! They were also the best 3 in giving me the time I deserve! Less time in the room waiting to see them too!
The WORST 3 were 2 young up and comers and 1 ortho doc who hated guns and was an inventor of procedures and parts for ortho work. He was also the "on call" ortho for the orlando magic... He screwed up a knee being in a rush cuz he over scheduled surgeries.
As for the OP... WE CANNOT AFFORD socialized insurance! We have far too much wasteful spending to do it! We also have too much charity give away to foreign nations to afford it! Also the we have laws allowing emergency care to the uninsured better than most countries. The socialized health care only covers emergency care... After that... "get on the list and wait"
Brent
 
... or in the US Military. Generally the care you got in the Army is about what the government can deliver. Also remember that the physicians in the Army are treating a large population of healthy men in their early 20's and 30's. Imagine throwing in a population where half are over 50 and lived sedentary lifestyles. Oops.

No I think that socialized medicine is a disaster. My disabilities were because it took them a full year to get me to an orthopedic surgeon for the necessary repairs. Bones heal on their time frame, not the governments, so unfortunately I am limited in my abilities to walk, run, jump or carry. If I'd had been a civilian, I wouldn't have these problems and the government would have saved a lot of money in disability payments to me, not to mention the money they spent on Vocational Rehabilitation (essentially the cost of putting me through four years of college).
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When I was in the Navy, circa 1992, my now-ex-wife was diagnosed with a pre-cancerous uterine condition. Over my objections, she insisted on being treated in the local military hospital because she wanted to save money. The military doctors performed a "cone biopsy." Several months later, the tests came back showing her condition had worsened. At that point, I took her to a civilian doctor, who performed something called LEAP, which cured the problem. The doctor told us that the civilian medical community had abandoned cone biopsies about 8 years earlier because that treatment, though cheaper, made matters worse. And that kind of treatment is essentially what the nationalized health care advocates want for all of us. Gee, thanks.

Free health care isn't free. People have to get paid; the money must come from somewhere. The difference with nationalized health care is that the money will be funneled through one of the least effective means possible. Think about how your local department of motor vehicles handles things, and you're pretty close.

Other differences are:
  • Lack of choice in doctors and treatments.
  • Your most intimate health records in the hands of government employees. If you're suspicious of Bush's wiretapping of phone conversations, this feature of nationalized health care should scare you plenty.
  • Decreased services because nationalized health care will lead to rationing; no funding model can support everything.
I'm sure there are others.
 
Free healthcare isn't free. People have to get paid; the money must come from somewhere.
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Yes, right now healthcare is one of the largest multi-billion dollar industries. take that profit away and place it into the actual care system.
 
Yes, right now healthcare is one of the largest multi-billion dollar industries. take that profit away and place it into the actual care system.
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That must be why so many people flock to Canada and the UK for health care, rather than the US.
 
Playboy...
Actually according to my friend who is a board-certified dermatologist, she stated that the military gives some pretty nice incentives that draw some of the best of the best out of med school.

You can work your butt off to pay off $180K in student loans or give us four years of a pretty decent schedule (as new Physicians go), and we will pay off all of your educational expenses.

My physicians were all top-notch in the Army. The problem was that I had to first convince medics with high-school diplomas that I was sick enough to see the Physician's Assistants (all pretty good too), who I then had to convince I was sick enough to see a general practitioner, who then had to convince I was bad off enough to see a specialist. That took close to a year. The damage was done.

Of course if you make all doctors government employees, you then create a system of laziness just as you find in most government agencies. You are nolonger richly rewarded for innovation, hard work and brilliance. You are rewarded for spending 8 hours at the clinic. Results become less important. Diversity becomes more important than quality of care just as it does anywhere the government takes charge.

As far as profit motive goes- I want my doctor to become quite wealthy from making me healthy. I also want the doctors who make you more ill to become quite poor.
 
That must be why so many people flock to Canada and the UK for health care, rather than the US.
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Where are you getting the idea that people "flock" to the US from industrialized nations for healthcare. That simply is not true. Like I said, I live in a medical family and the AMA reports that the only real substancial numbers we get from countries with socialized medicine are for "cosmetic" procedures.

The only country that floods our heathcare system is Mexico.

When was the last time you sat in an emergency room full of canadians and french people?
 
Because my mother's side of the family are French Canadians from the Quebec province, and I'm a tad familiar with their complaints about the Canadian system. And because I know some of them have gone to doctors in the US because they got tired of waiting several months for treatment, or because US hospitals often have equipment that simply is not available in most of Canada.

A few years back, one of the major TV networks had a special segment in which it was pointed out that Seattle-area hospitals had 3 machines for some sort of heart ailment, which was exactly the same number of the same machines in the entire nation of Canada.

NOTE ADDED: Look, we can go round-and-round with anecdotal stories, but that approach goes nowhere. So how about this: For anyone who wants a government-run health care plan, let's come up with a voluntary one that uses collective bargaining to reduce costs. And let's set it up so that anyone who opts out is not forced to pay more in taxes for those who sign up.
 
Because my mother's side of the family are French Canadians from the Quebec province, and I'm a tad familiar with their complaints about the Canadian system. And because I know some of them have gone to doctors in the US because they got tired of waiting several months for treatment, or because US hospitals often have equipment that simply is not available in most of Canada.

A few years back, one of the major TV networks had a special segment in which it was pointed out that Seattle-area hospitals had 3 machines for some sort of heart ailment, which was exactly the same number of the same machines in the entire nation of Canada.
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All conjecture, misdirection and falsehoods. I live in the area and that story you are referring to was for a certain type of echo cardiogram (if we are talking about the same story) that is seldom used. The ones in Canada are of a different make but do the same thing. They only had three of the exact same machine but had plenty that do the same procedure or a more advanced procedure.

But feel free to swallow the health-scare kool-aid that the multi-billion dollar healthcare system is feeding you and fall prey to their "the guberm'nt will get ya" boogey man stories if you wish. Ignoring the fact that we , in reality, are ranked in the bottom half of all industrialized nations healthcare wise and we spend many times more money per person than any other country for healthcare while providing the least coverage.
 
So we all chip in to improve the health of the poorest and unhealthiest members of society, thus increasing the lifespan and number of those members exponentially, thus requiring more taxes to continue the stupid cycle on and on until say, our stellar education system turns the majority of the takers into givers? :rolleyes: I realize the system helps those who can't help themselves but it helps those who won't help themselves even more. At what point would you say enough? Have you priced the avarage hospital stay lately? Can we really expect every sick drunk and meath/crack head and chain smoker and boarderline diabetic lardbutt that is 100% responsible for their own condition to get exactly the health care they need at the taxpayer's expense? I imagine even the most staunch do good liberals would be willing to cut this cycle that they fought so hard for when they only get to keep 25% of their paychecks. A flat tax that takes more money away from the rich folks to help the poor folks that they screw over to make their fortunes would be much better but we rarely ever get to talk about that.
 
So we all chip in to improve the health of the poorest and unhealthiest members of society, thus increasing the lifespan and number of those members exponentiall
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Wow, more propaganda. You really swallowed that line didn't you.
The vast majority of people that would benefit are working class individuals with families. People that work for $10-$25 an hour 40-50 hours a week yet still do not have adequate healthcare.

Like I said before, we already spend more per person on health care than Britain, Canada or other european countries. Ask yourself...where is that money going?
 
Ignoring the fact that we , in reality, are ranked in the bottom half of all industrialized nations healthcare wise and we spend many times more money per person than any other country for healthcare while providing the least coverage.
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Like I said, we can go round-and-round with anecdotal stories, but that approach goes nowhere. So how about this: For anyone who wants a government-run health care plan, let's come up with a voluntary one that uses collective bargaining to reduce costs. And let's set it up so that anyone who opts out is not forced to pay more in taxes for those who sign up.

If you favor letting people have choices in life, let them choose which system they want to trust.
 
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