So why can't kids own guns?

[zukiphile]

This question, and some of the replies, point out just how much our society has changed.

50 years ago the father, not the government, decided when a boy was ready to have a gun. 100 years ago the father decided when a boy became a man.

Children attained rights as the father decided to grant them. ...

I am on the whole a proponent of parental authority, and have had the pleasure of defending a father against prosecution for spanking a stepchild. I agree that our society has changed substantially.

However, facts matter. It is not correct that the father decided when a boy became a man or that his children only attained rights when he decided to grant them. We have long had age thresholds for a wide range of activities any of which are constitutionally protected including but not limited to enlistment and inclusion in the draft, buying alcohol, driving, marriage, voting, and holding some federal offices. Not permitting minors to purchase firearms legally is not a social innovation.

 

[jnichols2]

zukiphile,

Don't know about you, but I was around to see how things worked 50 years ago. He bought my first gun, and I don't think he asked anybody's permission first.

My father carefully told me how things were in the early 1900s. His father made the decisions about driving and alcohol. I guess there were voting ages, but who checked back then? Nobody asked for his birth certificate when he signed up for WWII.

I'm sure there were laws, but most people had little concern about what the government thought. My father was 60 years old the first time he ever talked to a lawyer.

The gist of my reply was that the family, not the government, made decisions on a child's upbringing. I described reality.

Today the government decided a 15 year old girl can buy the abortion pill without family knowledge. That's today's reality.

The responsibility for bringing up children has transferred from parents to the "gubment", and a whole lot of folks haven't even noticed.

 

[zukiphile]

zukiphile,

Don't know about you, but I was around to see how things worked 50 years ago. He bought my first gun, and I don't think he asked anybody's permission first.

Emphasis added.

Exactly, even back then, you did not buy your first gun.

My father carefully told me how things were in the early 1900s. His father made the decisions about driving and alcohol.

I started driving a car when I was 10 years old. It was the 1970s, and completely illegal. I was even pulled over a couple of times. I do not believe that data point has a lot of explanatory power though.

Nobody asked for his birth certificate when he signed up for WWII.

No less a fellow than GHWB also lied about his age to enter service early. Perhaps this says something about the efficacy of Social Security numbers as a general government identification number.

The responsibility for bringing up children has transferred from parents to the "gubment", and a whole lot of folks haven't even noticed.

I would agree with the proposition that in a very general sense as the scope of government has expanded the scope and sufficiency of families has contracted. This analysis was made powerfully by Daniel Patrick Moynihan in the 1960s.

As much as I agree with the proposition I do not believe the power of the proposition is increased by inaccuracy or exaggeration. It has sufficient power to stand firmly on its own unadorned facts.

 

[jnichols2]

I didn't exaggerate, nor did I state anything that was inaccurate.

You don't read very well, do you??

My context wasn't that the child bought his first gun, his father did, as did mine.

I never said my father lied about his age to enlist, I distinctly said that nobody asked.

The use of the Social Security number for identification, which was forbidden when it was signed into law, has resulted in more stolen identities than everything else combined.

As for your experiences, they are not relevant. My input was about my experiences. Given that I will judge the veracity of my memories, not you.

This will be my final reply to you, after all, I'm not in your courtroom.

 

[twobit]

From the lyrics of "Summertime Blues" ...I'd like to help you son, but your too young to vote!

 

[patrickmn]

Why can't children own guns? Because the government decided it was a better parent than the actual parents? It hasn't been too many generations since children could own guns. I mean young children, not teenagers. It's only been a few decades since they could carry their guns to school, especially rifles and shotguns. Pre-teens fought in the US Civil War. If kids are not responsible enough for gun ownership, it isn't the kid's fault.

 

[Plumbnut]

Kids can own guns. They just cant go to the store and buy them nor are they allowed to handle them without supervision.

 

[fragtagninja]

This reminds of when I was still very young. My father sat me down at the age of 6 years and showed me how his guns worked. He also taught me about gun safety starting around this time when I would play with toy guns. I got in trouble if I pointed it at someone. He also explained that if you shoot someone with a gun you will never see them again. I was young, but I understood that I should never point a gun at anything I don't intend to kill. From the age of 6 I have always had a strong awareness of where my muzzle is pointing. He also told me he would beat me with a belt if he caught me touching his guns without him being there. Suffice to say I am sort of a gun safety nazi now, but the old man made his point and I learned guns are not toys. That said I was still never allowed to use a real firearm un-supervised. I could shoot archery all day or throw knives and tomahawks all I wanted. Even pellet guns were fine, but I was never allowed to use a true blue firearm alone. I was always a pretty mature kid, but my dad really did know best in this regard.



Until your at least 22 you think nothing can touch you and so you do dangerous things. Guns are a bad thing to throw into that mess. I have sure done my share of stupid stunts, and looking back I can see why my dad didn't trust me alone with guns. I thought I was invincible.

 

[rc]

100 Years ago

I should add to my earlier comments. If a boy got out of line 100 years ago the Kid didn't call the cops on the parent for having the snot beat out of them in the wood shed and the kids didn't cry to their parent about that mean teacher because the teacher had the right to beat the kid with a stick and nobody thought it was WRONG because they believed in biblical teaching that if you spare the rod...... Today we have a spoiled generation that think they are entitled because the government has made being a parent or teacher more difficult than it was 100 years ago. Then the government decided people would be safer if the irresponsible were banned from having guns. This included children. It really is about taking the responsibility for parenting away from parents. SSSHHH Don't tell Hillary, but it does take a village and a parent to raise a child. Starts with the parent being allowed to discipline a child for getting out of line. That's what is best for the community.

 

[Gaerek]

jnichols - As far as a child owning a gun, there is no difference between now and then. A child can own a gun. They just can't buy one. Your dad bought you a gun? That's absolutely wonderful! I could legally buy my 4 year old a gun if I wanted to today.

While I do agree that the government is getting too deep into people's lives, this really isn't that big of a concern, and if you were born 10 years ago, you could still own a gun today, provided someone else gave it to you as a gift...just the same as the gun you received as a gift 50 years ago.

We can argue whether a child (be it 5, 10, 15, 17 years of age, or whatever) should be able to purchase their own gun if you want. Personally, I wouldn't trust most 15 year olds with a paintball gun without supervision (why do I think that? Because I was that 15 year old with a paintball gun...) let alone an actual firearm that will do a lot more than give you a welt, or at worst, take an eye in the case of a negligent discharge (I've been the victim of several of these from a paintball gun).

A father giving his child (whatever the age) a firearm as a gift, letting them use it supervised, and ensuring it's safely stored (in a manner inaccessible to the child without the parent's permission)? I'm absolutely, 100% OK with that. You can still do that today, just as you could 50 years ago. What I'm not OK with is children, whose maturity level we are unaware of, in general, having the ability to purchase a deadly weapon. It's the same reason we don't let 10 year olds get drivers licenses, because we all know that the most dangerous drivers on the road are 16 year olds.

 

[Tom Servo]

We've veered off into general arguments about the role of government and parenting in general, so this is as good a place to close as any.